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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 3, 2017 10:38:19 GMT -6
You've encountered many of the same things I have. Part of my record-keeping here is so that myself (and others) might notice trends, or see other "meta" issues that might influence game-play. In my Germany game I went All Guns for my legacy fleet; max number of barrels for a 7" secondary and a 6 inch tertiary. I even had Germany's starting ACs built in FRANCE because their yards were 2k tons bigger, and that would matter. The pre-dreadnoughts were successful in fleet engagements, and one of the ACs became legendary (that is the game which I have 2000 screen shots for to write a story-based AAR). However, the armor was so sketchy that when the Jutland era came along my only recourse was to consign them to distant stations, where they could be of nominal use and stay out of trouble. For this last game, my pre-dreds had 4 x 13" and only 14 3", and the dang things were just useless. I think I found out why as well. In 1905 USN Cmdr Bradley Fiske described the effects of fire concentration, quantified 9 years later British engineer Fredrick William Lancaster as the "N2 Law". It states that in a match of squadrons of equal quality and differing size, "the surviving ships of the [larger] force would equal the square root of the difference between the square of the gun power of the two ships" (*Evans/Peattie 144). I had always noticed that "volume of fire" felt like the most important factor to me, even back in GNB1 days, and now I have found the theory - 102 years later - that puts it into form. Pretty neat. My pre-dreads will always now have max batteries, and my DNs will continue to favor tubes over caliber. Though, I continue to have a weakness for a 22k-24k ton ship with 8 15" guns. Small enough to build in quantity, loud enough to never ignore. *Kaigun; Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the IJN 1887-1941.
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Post by director on Jan 3, 2017 11:32:24 GMT -6
Along with the N2 law, people like Percy Scott in the Royal Navy and Fiske and Sims on the US side were figuring out how to maximize shells on target at long range and high speed. In general, their principles came down to a sequence of 'slow-paced ranging fire, full-on fast fire for effect, repeat'. The conclusions were that ranging fire needed 2 shots over, 2 shots close over, 2 shots close under and 2 shots under. From that you could get a good idea of where the full salvo should go. That kind of 'ladder' calls for 8 guns to fire pretty much at the same time, so accepted wisdom became that a capital ship needed at least 8 guns. That was one of the 'knocks' on HMS Repulse and Renown, but the fact was that they were big, modern ships (after WW1) and couldn't really be discarded, so they were repeatedly refitted and I guess the gunnery officers just 'made do'. Neither of them ever used their big gun batteries for much, anyway. In WW2, the German Navy combined ranging and effect fire and just went to the fastest possible fire from the first moment. That was used to good effect in actions like the Denmark Strait, especially so since German systems tended to start out accurate and then degrade. I get the idea of using big shells for smashing power, but I also love me a 12-gun battery. One of my most successful games as the US revolved around a 'house rule' that i would have no gun bigger than 14". I was somewhat skeptical as to how that would turn out, since 14" is pretty small by even mid-game standards. But the smaller barrel meant I could put a lot of them on a ship of reasonable tonnage: the 42,000-ton Oklahoma class had 12 and the 45,000-ton Pennsylvanias had 15. I had 6 of the Okiess and 7 of the Pennsys... and being down-range of them was like being in the alley at the St Valentine's Day Massacre. The relatively light bullet turned out not to be a problem given that I could land a LOT of them every turn and then use my DDs (8x4" or 6x5" and 8 torpedo tubes) to finish. Not that I think that's ideal, exactly - my favorite setup is 12x15" or 16" guns, though 9 will do. Rather than go to 6 or 8 guns in a battery, I'll drop the caliber. I've even been known to put off building dreadnoughts if I can only fit 3x2 turrets on them. It was interesting to see how effective the American 'popgun' navy turned out to be, however. Airy W - what I meant was maybe not exactly what I said. I think a lot of people focus on the big sexy battleships and battlecruisers, "not that there's anything wrong with that". I estimate that most of my victory points come from cruiser battles - especially light cruiser engagements - and so I've made it a rule of thumb that the one thing I absolutely MUST have is a light cruiser that can wipe the floor with its enemy counterparts. In my current game as France I got blockaded by Britain and now I'm fighting for my life against a large but not very high-quality Italian Navy. In both cases it is the VPs from light cruiser actions that are keeping me - ahem - afloat. And if I had my choice I would definitely take command of a Constitution-class starship over sitting at a desk and doing paperwork. Here's a shot from my October visit to Ticonderoga, New York: They've built the rest of the sets, too. I had a great time...
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 3, 2017 12:54:34 GMT -6
Game 7, Austria. End 1950, Prestige 48. Budget = 614,744,900. Due to Austria's low resources at game's start, this game was slow at the diplomacy table too, as the first conflict did not occur until 1920. Once the navy was mature however, Italy, France, and Germany all lost possessions. The first war with France was quite dicey, and 3 of our first 5 DN's were lost. However, thanks to the swift amphibious conquest of Madagascar (2 months!), when a white peace was signed it still proved a net gain. At game's end I had wrested Albania and Sardinia from Italy, and Rhodes and Corsica from France. The completion of the Mediterranean dream was in sight as well, with a successful "catch me if you can" war being fought with Britain, which could perhaps have yielded Cyprus, Malta, and Egypt. The Tirol class were the saviors of the KUK, being for 20 years the only capital ships I trusted in action. Slavoien's sister was lost, but Slavoien operated right to the end alongside ships twice her size. The Voralberg's were the next generation of Austrian capital ship, and proved their worth in action against the French and English, one of the 4, Kustenland, destroying 2 BC's in 7 minutes off Corsica. In a second action, 2 English BC's lured a pair against the coast, who were then surprised by 2 more BC's heading to cut off their escape. They made a break for it, destroying both the ambushing BC's after already battering the original two. One was lost however, when her Captain could not get her off a sandbar as night fell, and she later foundered an hour from port. The Lost list. Overall a very satisfying game.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 3, 2017 13:03:04 GMT -6
director In all my reading I had never before encountered the reason for DN's to want 8 guns- thank you for that!
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 5, 2017 23:21:37 GMT -6
Game 8, Russia. End 1950, Prestige 39. Budget = 635,090,120. I am beginning to feel Russia might be my favorite nation to play, for this game was Epic. I *wish* I'd had a recording going, or had a complete history log. There were so many ebbs and floods, that I again twice was at that point where "playing out the string" was only an exercise in completing the history. In the end, it was worthy of Rocky Balboa. I chose as my Admiral the Grand Duke George Alexandrovich, who in this iteration of history did not die in a motorcycle accident in the 1890's, but rather continued his promising naval career and was appointed to run the Navy by his brother, Czar Nicholas in 1900. I set as my goal to limit Japanese expansion and to expand myself into the Mediterranean, taking ownership of those regions near to the Bosporus. There were unfortunate wars with Germany and Austria, unfortunate in that the former ended in a White Peace despite doing well against them in action, and the latter conducted at a point when Austria had nothing to give. From the start I stationed cruisers in the Med on the hope that they would allow me a greater chance of a successful colonial grab. War with Italy occurred first however, and at its conclusion Sardinia was acquired, as it would allow bases for the Mediterranean Squadron to operate from. Around this time Borneo was also occupied as a colonial opportunity. Next came war again with Austria, as we attempted to block their seizure of Rhodes. A great victory over their scouting battle-cruiser squadron tipped the scales permanently, however when the time came to choose territories it was decided to add Austrian Java to our South East Asian territories rather than the limited and now somewhat redundant Rhodes- which, amusingly, was occupied by our ally America. A later war with France allowed the annexation of Albania, and Russia now had unhindered access to the Med. As the game swept to its climax, it was realized that England was the only remaining obstacle to freedom of the seas, and either Gibraltar or Egypt should be the bar that we reach for. However, as tensions rose with England, she signed a pact with Germany to limit our expansion. When war came, it was against them both, with America then suddenly seizing the half-completed Super-dreadnought Battle-cruiser we had building there. The war immediately went badly, with disastrous convoy attacks in both the Bay of Biscay and the Baltic costing us half our battleships and 2/3's our battle-cruisers. The remaining battle-cruiser sank a month later in the Irish Sea in true ignominy. A British battle-cruiser had been swiftly destroyed to no loss, and we were safely withdrawing. However, a pair of destroyers harried a damaged destroyer falling behind, and as the hits began to fall I decided I could not let it happen, and turned back to offer succor. Fate, of course, decreed that darkness would fall as I arrived, and the destroyer would sink just as I appeared out of the darkness to take a pair of torpedoes. 2 hours later, we heeled over and were lost. At this point, I was down massively in Victory Points. However... "Mikhail." "Yes Yuri? Come in. What is there to report." "The British Mediterranean Fleet has left for England. See here, they estimate only a pair of destroyers in Gibraltar." "...what a gross disrespect Yuri." "Yes Mikhail, I agree. It is as if they fear nothing our 6 cruisers could do." "...Yuri, how large is our garrison here in Albania?" "Why 800 men, you know this. At least, here at the port." "Fall them in, Yuri. We are going ...sightseeing," he said with a slow smile. The very next month, Britain re-deployed cruisers to the Med, but 2 months later we were able to successfully destroy a convoy bound for the coast, and Egypt was ours! And Then, A breakthrough in Poland! ...and then, The war was going badly. Despite the successes in Egypt and Poland, the seas were choked of trade and the Navy could do little without getting its nose bloodied. Yet, it was left to the Navy to try. A sortie from Riga of our only 3 seaworthy dreadnoughts would be the last hurrah no-one doubted. The seas were high and the air thick. The advance cruiser encountered some destroyers and exchanged fire, but it was uncertain what could have occurred due to the Force 9 gale. The damaged scouting force was instructed to withdraw, and the Battleships would sweep the battleground to finish off any hulks, and then we would return. And then, Providence. We had just completed our northward turn, and the wind was in our favor when out of the murk 3 British battle-cruisers appeared! Fire was exchanged, the range was found swiftly, but the orders were just being given to turn away and withdraw when- Not 6 minutes later, a second battle-cruiser was destroyed! Our squadron was wounded though so we turned for home, when the 3rd battle-cruiser arced out of the wall of rain to be pummeled by our broadsides. It later sank, to one of ours, however our fury and been far more noteworthy. The victory total, amazingly, now showed us in the lead- just as the Grand Duke was obliged to retire. But, the peace-talks I think would have gone well, for in addition to the embarrassment in the Baltic, the loss of Egypt, and the advance in Poland, George would have pointed to the long breadlines from our successful submarine campaign, and then to the yards where One Hundred and Seventy more submarines were being built; 100 of them carrying mines. Yes, I think England will be happy to have only lost Egypt. The Roll of the Brave... A very satisfying game again! This was one of my original cruisers, which I include as an illustration of the design 'book' I built my ships from for this game. Both my original ACs and pre-DNs all experimented with the uniform battery of 7" guns in twin turrets. This was a further experiment from my "low secondary" arming of last game, as I attempted to see how gunnery would be affected. There were times when it seemed to be golden, and times where lacking a 10"+ weapon definitely seemed like a hindrance. I don't think I'll be doing it again, but I like the way the designs turned out visually as I successfully made them distinctive and "eastern" I think.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 7, 2017 13:56:00 GMT -6
Game 9, Italy. End 1950, Prestige 33. Budget = 227,286,430. As amazing as my last two games were, this one was ...just pathetic. I got behind the 8-ball from the start, having too many large ships building from the legacy fleet, which ultimately meant wasted resources as they were scrapped on the ways. When war came with Austria in 1914 I had only 2 pre-dreadnoughts and 2 dreadnoughts, to Austria's 5 & 6. The war was a wash, 1 BB each, but I spent a lot of time running from fights and avoiding actions. Ultimately after almost 5 years of war the government collapsed before I could get a reversal of fortune or a U-boat campaign started, and Austria claimed ALL my capital ships- 2 BBs and a BC. My largest ships in 1920 were my original ACs. And that was the ONLY war we fought. I spent the next 30 years trying to modernize the navy, being derailed by fickle government directives (3 BBs, 10 Cruisers, 21 subs in Successive Months, I kid you not), and desperately trying to avoid a war with anyone. Territory-wise I suppose historians would say it was a net gain, as we lost Eritrea in the war but added Java in peace, but my dreams of a New Rome came to utter naught. It was of greater interest (though not of great interest) to see France lose 2 colonies in SE Asia, and England occupy one. All the losses from the war. This was my light cruiser design I started with- which I liked a lot, until I fitted torpedo bulges and made them so slow they were a liability. Refit twice to upgrade the fire control, but fixing the engines would have been just too expensive. Many lessons to learn from this campaign.
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Post by director on Jan 8, 2017 14:01:33 GMT -6
I just prematurely ended a game as France (IE rage-quit). First out of the gate was a war with Britain in 1901 or 2. I lost but 'only' gave up minor territories - and my economy, which kept me from building up my fleet or even modernizing it unless I put everything in reserve.
Second was an alliance with Britain - good, I thought, though it hit my budget hard. Then came war with Germany. They had fewer BBs and BCs than Britain but our two fleets combined were not enough to keep them from blockading us - for two straight years. My excellent light cruisers let me pull enough VPs to eke out a win, gaining no territory or funds.
Second war with Germany, Britain again has a massive fleet but is content to sit at home and be blockaded while the numerically-inferior Germans roam the world. The movement algorithm sucks three of my desperately-needed armored cruisers into Northern Europe and under the blockade (when any person would have sailed from the Indian Ocean to West Africa to the Caribbean, these bozos insist on going into the black hole of British incompetence that is the north Atlantic).
SO then in a couple of months I lost a BB, a BC, two B's and two cruisers to submarines and mines.
I don't mind challenging, and I have enjoyed RtW, but I am enjoying it very much less these days. Perhaps I've played it enough to see its flaws or maybe the last few patches broke something, but with all the trouble I go to designing and building and paying for capital ships, it enrages me for a random-number-generator to sweep them away 'off-stage' as it were. And so I closed the game, wiped the France file and went to see a movie.
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Post by Airy W on Jan 8, 2017 20:27:53 GMT -6
I just dont fight Britain as France. I unashamedly savescum if a bad run of luck makes it happen. France is really fun if you do that.
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Post by director on Jan 9, 2017 0:41:44 GMT -6
I'm with you on not fighting Britain pretty much unless you are a well-prepared USA or Germany. I vividly recall getting into a late-game (1930s) fight with Britain. I brought my dreadnoughts; they had I think as many battlecruisers as I had dreadnoughts (LOL) and iron-plated the ocean with battleships.
There's an old US Army joke (at least my dad, who was in the Army, used to tell it) for which the punchline is, "And then we all died!" And an old comedy routine (George Carlin? Bill Cosby?) that includes the line, "And you and your men, General Custer, will take positions over there while all the Indians in the world ride down upon you."
That's what fighting Britain is to me. Playing Britain isn't much fun either - I don't enjoy the Colonial Cruiser Mambo and that's most of what the British player gets to do.
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Post by Noname117 on Jan 9, 2017 5:18:23 GMT -6
I just dont fight Britain as France. I unashamedly savescum if a bad run of luck makes it happen. France is really fun if you do that. Well to be fair the best war I've fought so far was with me being France against Great Britain (with a little bit of save scumming when bad luck happened mid-war) at the very beginning of the dreadnought era. Lasted for 61 months until their government collapsed
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Post by axe99 on Jan 9, 2017 14:57:27 GMT -6
I'm with you on not fighting Britain pretty much unless you are a well-prepared USA or Germany. I vividly recall getting into a late-game (1930s) fight with Britain. I brought my dreadnoughts; they had I think as many battlecruisers as I had dreadnoughts (LOL) and iron-plated the ocean with battleships. There's an old US Army joke (at least my dad, who was in the Army, used to tell it) for which the punchline is, "And then we all died!" And an old comedy routine (George Carlin? Bill Cosby?) that includes the line, "And you and your men, General Custer, will take positions over there while all the Indians in the world ride down upon you." That's what fighting Britain is to me. Playing Britain isn't much fun either - I don't enjoy the Colonial Cruiser Mambo and that's most of what the British player gets to do. Aye, I find the US and Germany the only two nations to comfortably fight Britain with. One day, when I'm feeling lucky and having a good run, I might have a go with France. I've generally found as a smaller nation that the way tension works it's pretty easy to avoid a fight with the Brits though. I actually find the US the toughest opponent, particularly when things have gone on a bit - Britain has to have a significant amount of their forces dispersed, and as the game goes on loses a lot of her economic advantage, while the US and Germany to a lesser extent are better able to concentrate (and are less likely to have their ships spontaneously combust). After about 1920 I'd rate the US as the toughest opponent, Germany as the next and then the Brits. Generally, I find it best to keep wars within the 'tier' I'm playing, so if playing one of those three, only fighting one of those three, and same for the other nations (although France if it has a good game can mix it with the big boys, but it needs to be a good game). So, in that context, taking on the Brits and Germany, as Russia, is very very impressive, well played Garrison .
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 9, 2017 20:39:32 GMT -6
Well, thank you for the compliment- quite charitable of you. I hope my good games don't seem too much like boasting, creating a record of multiple campaigns was my main objective, and I am sure I'll have a downer game for every 1 or 2 good ones.
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Post by axe99 on Jan 10, 2017 16:16:23 GMT -6
Well, thank you for the compliment- quite charitable of you. I hope my good games don't seem too much like boasting, creating a record of multiple campaigns was my main objective, and I am sure I'll have a downer game for every 1 or 2 good ones. Sorry, I was in no way trying to suggest you were boasting and it doesn't come off as such, it was a good and enjoyable read .
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Post by Airy W on Jan 10, 2017 17:06:49 GMT -6
(although France if it has a good game can mix it with the big boys, but it needs to be a good game). On further reflection, there is actually a way to pull it off in 1900 with historical resources. Go whole hog on the Jeune Ecole and spend 75% of your money on destroyers. Pray for night battles.
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Post by director on Jan 10, 2017 22:16:50 GMT -6
We could have a discussion of the Jeune Ecole somewhere other than in Garrison's thread. Before my destroyers could accomplish something they would have to actually fire a torpedo, and pre-1920 they seem to think the captain has to buy them out of his own pocket. Either that or the contractors welded them into the tubes and nobody can get them out LOL.
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