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Post by Enderminion on May 1, 2017 0:05:57 GMT -6
cough 14in guns are more common in the USN and IJN, only the HMS Canada had 14in guns in europe and it was buildt for a SA country
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Post by cv10 on May 1, 2017 1:04:53 GMT -6
cough 14in guns are more common in the USN and IJN, only the HMS Canada had 14in guns in europe and it was buildt for a SA country Quite right! She's hard to fit into a battle squadron because of that: put her with the 13 inch gun battleships and she outranges her entire squadron and hampers the gunnery, put her in with the 15 inch gun battleships (hallowed be their names!) and she's outranked by her entire squadron. (forgot to mention it, I opted not to seize her, I think that she has a thin belt for a BB as well). Though IIRC there were some reports that worried Jellicoe that the Germans had been rebuilding their dreadnoughts with 14 inch guns, and that this might have influenced some of his decisions at Jutland, but I can't remember where I read that, so I might be mis-remembering. My joke was intended to suggest that the Germans were trying to smuggle them into Germany through the Netherlands
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Post by bcoopactual on May 1, 2017 6:18:58 GMT -6
Anyone know if there was there a reason why the European navies tended towards odd numbers for their capital ship main gun calibers and outside of Europe they tended towards even numbered calibers? I'm sure there were exceptions but it seems to work as a general rule.
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Post by babylon218 on May 1, 2017 6:33:57 GMT -6
I thin it's purely coincidental. Most European navies adopted 13-in (the British used a 13.5-in gun) because it provided superior firepower to the 11/12-in they'd been using up to that point. US adopted the 14-in to overpower the British and German 13-in guns and Britain adopted 15-in to match German 15-in guns believed to then be in production. Britain did try to adopt the 16-in gun with the Nelson and Rodney, but their 16-in guns had reliability problems and the 15-in gun then in use had superior characteristics. They tried again with the Lion-Class in 1938, but they were never completed (aside from HMS Vanguard, which recieved 15-in guns from Courageous and Furious).
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Post by bcoopactual on May 1, 2017 6:41:35 GMT -6
Seems reasonable and it's a good point about the British not being wedded to odd number calibers. Their N3's/G3's would have had 18 inch/16 inch guns respectively had they been built. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 12:02:36 GMT -6
mines: i used to concentrate mines on the port entrance to helgoland bight. Unlike RTW ships in SAI actually sail from/to their home port at scenario start/end. so sometimes (just sometimes) these lead to hilarious events.
victory points: 2 million VP is really not that much, just like real life Jutland 1 or 2 decisive fleet victory can force the other side to the negotiate table (game win). however as cv10 notes catching the enemy is the hard part, intel, OP points, fleet status, weather, time of day, enemy sortie schedule, plus a cautious enemy (Kaiser and his beloved ships) so a lot of patience and luck. i learned a lot from Randomizer (sorta the expert on SAI related/historical matters) who said he mostly sortie light units and leave capital ships on emergency activation only to save OP points. also from fredsanford tactics wise about using destroyer divisions - which is to spam them, in a nutshell..
the "operational layer" of SAI is pretty amazing as OP is demo-ing. despite RTW being the successor SAI is lotta different and is pretty worth checking out!
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Post by cv10 on May 1, 2017 13:42:19 GMT -6
mines: i used to concentrate mines on the port entrance to helgoland bight. Unlike RTW ships in SAI actually sail from/to their home port at scenario start/end. so sometimes (just sometimes) these lead to hilarious events. victory points: 2 million VP is really not that much, just like real life Jutland 1 or 2 decisive fleet victory can force the other side to the negotiate table (game win). however as cv10 notes catching the enemy is the hard part, intel, OP points, fleet status, weather, time of day, enemy sortie schedule, plus a cautious enemy (Kaiser and his beloved ships) so a lot of patience and luck. i learned a lot from Randomizer (sorta the expert on SAI related/historical matters) who said he mostly sortie light units and leave capital ships on emergency activation only to save OP points. also from fredsanford tactics wise about using destroyer divisions - which is to spam them, in a nutshell.. the "operational layer" of SAI is pretty amazing as OP is demo-ing. despite RTW being the successor SAI is lotta different and is pretty worth checking out! In a different game, I once laid two minefields off the Northern Dutch Coast, and the German battlecruiser squadron got stuck trying to get out of it after they sailed right into it on their way (presumably) to raid the Dover patrol. My dreadnoughts had a field day of just blasting away as the Hun helplessly circled, trying to work its way out along the coast. Sank 'em all that day I generally prefer to sortie the big ships, rather than use emergency activation. However I'll have to give this a try. Every so often, I'll sortie a cruiser group attached to the Harwich Force in the event that I'm not doing any mining so that I have an extra scout force. Big +1 to the "operational layer" being amazing. There are a ton of things to consider when prepping a turn. Fo instance, in a different game, i laid out a submarine picket to help me locate the enemy fleet. My own fleet was sailing near it, and one of my destroyers reported an attack on a submarine, result, one of my subs did not come back...woops! (It could have been unrelated and my DD attacked a dolphin or whale [not completely unheard of, the wakes could be mistaken for submarines or torpedoes)
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Post by director on May 1, 2017 15:30:00 GMT -6
Worth noting that even a small increase in caliber has a large effect on shell weight. This is NOT an exhaustive list (because different countries' shells have different weights and because HE and AP shells have different weights), but it is informative in a general way. Also please note this does NOT take muzzle velocity into account. 11" German 666 lb 12" German 893 lb 12" British 850 lb 13.5" British 1400 lb 14" American 1500 lb 15" German 1653 lb 15" British 1920 lb For a comparison of the WW 1-era 15" guns, see here: www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_15-42_mk1.phpYou can see that the jump from 12" to 13.5 or 14" meant a large increase in shell weight; the increase from 13.5" to 15" is not as pronounced but is still significant. My take is that jumping up 1" in caliber meant all the cost and trouble of designing and producing a new gun for a relatively small increase in shell weight, so navies preferred to get the most, um, bang for their bucks. Add me to the list of people enjoying the read. Churchill may have boasted that the Royal Navy would force the Germans out, but in reality they had no means to do so.
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Post by cv10 on May 1, 2017 15:57:37 GMT -6
Turn Two (August 18th, 1914): Summary of Action
This turn began with a sweep of the North Sea by the Grand Fleet towards the southeastern North Sea. The fleet sortied out from Scapa Flow in good order and formed up into five columns and headed towards the sweeping point. They maintained a speed of 16 knots for twelve hours, until night fell. During the night, the fleet reduced its speed to 12 knots to aid in force cohesion. Maneuvering at night is generally a tricky matter. However only a few smaller ships became separated. These ships were able to rejoin the fleet shortly after nightfall. During the night and early morning, Room 40 had reported a force of German light cruisers sailing to the North from Helgoland. Abiding by standard operating procedure, the first report was set aside in favor on continuing on towards our objective. However, a later Room 40 directive reported a pair of enemy armored cruisers and a force of light cruisers on a course similar to that of the previous sighting. As such, the decision was made to alter course and proceed to investigate.
First reported position by Room 40 Second reported position from Room 40 (further North)
Room 40 is a useful tool for the British. While not entirely reliable, repeated signals coupled with submarine patrols can go a long way towards providing a picture of what is going on. In this case, the intel. chaps got the course wrong, as corroboration that the Germans were up to something came quickly.A British merchantman radioed a distress signal saying that he was under attack by enemy surface ships. The Grand Fleet turned Northeast and began to close the distance. While the poor freighter was sunk, it had done an invaluable service and the fleet was determined to avenge her loss. After several hours of steaming, the lookouts aboard HMS Iron Duke gave the cry of "Enemy in sight" The German battlecruiser squadron had come out, and had been sailing North. Its mission cannot be known, but I suspect that they were on their way to raid the Northern Patrol and happened to stubble across a British freighter by accident. As soon as the Germans were identified as battlecruisers, I ordered maximum speed. At this point, my biggest fear was that they would escape, and I needed to hammer them a bit to slow them down. I was fortunate in that my fleet was to the west of theirs for the engagement: this gave me two advantages. First is that as the day went on, the glare from the sun would be in the German eyes. Second was that in being west of them, I effectively trapped them between my fleet and the shore. As such, while they could run for home, there would only be a limited area that they could try to escape in: them disengaging and losing themselves in the expanse of the North Sea would not be possible. As the opening salvos began, I turned my fleet southeast in a bid to cut them off from their home ports. I also ordered the 1/1 battle squadron to break off from the battle line to swing south quicker and try to head them off even if they got past my battle-line. This proved to be a crucial decision on my part. For their part, the outnumbered Germans decided to flee for home. The main battle-line hammered away at the German fleet, yet our accuracy left much to be desired, and we seemed to take the brunt of the hits as the fleet passed over the Jutland bank. I'd attribute this inaccuracy to the lack of time for drills on the part of my battle squadrons. We engaged sufficiently late in the day that the morning glare was not a factor. Yet as the fleets headed southeast, the German fleet kept getting closer and closer to the coastline. Eventually, they ended up pinned against it, and due the independent maneuvering of the 1/1 Battle Squadron, they ended up having it out muzzle to muzzle While the Germans were faster and began to get away from the 1/1 Battle Squadron, they were kept pinned there long enough to be trapped by Horn's Reef, which gave me time for the rest of the Grand Fleet to catch up. The Germans found themselves blocked from going south by the reef, with the only option being to steam into the guns of the grand fleet. However this is where the battle started to sour for the British. Night fell, and I ordered my battleships to close into sight and finish the job. While they were doing this, they were swarmed by several squadrons of German destroyers and light forces. Caught in the dark and against a shore, my fleet endured wave after wave of torpedoes. I can say that it could have been worse, as the bulk of them missed. However multiple dreadnoughts endured single hits, including HMS Iron Duke, which had already endured a slugging match with the Germans. in spite of being detached with a heavy escort, she was surprised by a German light cruiser and torpedoed again. She sank, with her escorts rescuing a good many of her crew. Also hit was HMS Thunderer. Her captain was a bloody fool. He tried to maintain a speed of 18 knots after being hit. and only reduced it after ten minutes, by which time, the poor ship had taken a great deal of flotation damage. Not willing to let that be his last error, he attempted to steam home at 10 knots, which his bulkheads could not stand. She shipped water and foundered on her way home. My only consolation is that my destroyers torpedoed the daylights out of the German battlecruisers, and SMS Seydlitz exploded. The rest of the fleet broke off and made for Scapa Flow, or any other port nearby. Here's the final tally
I think that this is a minor victory with major implications, most of which benefit me. To start with the bad: I lost two good dreadnoughts (21 knots, 13 inch guns, heavier 12 inch belts). That stings a bit, particularly as the loss of HMS Thunderer was unnecessary and so close to making port. However reinforcements will replace those losses by November, and ,more importantly, I sank three German battlecruisers, and they don't get many more. I have effectively crippled their heavy scouting force for at least a year, and due to it only having one battlecruiser, it will be at a serious disadvantage should it run into my battlecruiser fleet. Additionally, in losing so many of their battlecruisers, they effectively lost their fast/heavy squadron. The Germans will now have to choose between sending out either cruiser forces to attack my shipping and cities or using the High Seas Fleet to do this. These are both bad options, as if they opt for armored and light cruisers, I can send in my battlecruisers to tear them apart. However if they opt for the High Seas Fleet, then they have to put it into a position where it could be easily intercepted by the Grand Fleet. Overall, the loss of the two dreadnoughts hurts, but I think that I've hurt the Germans much worse
Above: Fleet repair roster Below: Change from turn one to turn two: note that HMS Erin (BB) has reinforced the fleet
Above: list of reinforcements due to arrive either on or before January 1st, 1915
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Post by cv10 on May 1, 2017 16:03:55 GMT -6
Add me to the list of people enjoying the read. Churchill may have boasted that the Royal Navy would force the Germans out, but in reality they had no means to do so. Welcome aboard! I agree. I think that the inaction of the North Sea Campgain might have contributed to some of the grandiose plans that he hatched when he was First Lord: in addition to the Dardanelles Offensive, I think that there was also a plot to use British ships to land Russian troops on the Baltic Coast and then march on Berlin
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Post by babylon218 on May 1, 2017 16:24:49 GMT -6
Add me to the list of people enjoying the read. Churchill may have boasted that the Royal Navy would force the Germans out, but in reality they had no means to do so. Welcome aboard! I agree. I think that the inaction of the North Sea Campgain might have contributed to some of the grandiose plans that he hatched when he was First Lord: in addition to the Dardanelles Offensive, I think that there was also a plot to use British ships to land Russian troops on the Baltic Coast and then march on Berlin That plan did exist, but it wasn't Churchill's: it was Fisher's. Fisher and Churchill had gotten into a long row about where to open up a second front with the Central Powers - Churchill favoured the Ottoman Empire at Gallipoli, believing the Entente could quickly sieze Constantinople and open supplies to Russia via the Black Sea. He also believed that once the Ottomans surrendered, the Entente could March up through the Balkans and relieve Serbia. Fisher favoured attacking Germany directly, and even laid down 3 'large light cruisers' designed for coastal operations (all three would be converted into Aircraft Carriers after Fisher was forced to resign in 1916, and their 2 15-inch guns each would eventually go to HMS Vanguard in the 1940s). Needless to say, Churchill won the argument.
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Post by cv10 on May 1, 2017 17:11:27 GMT -6
Welcome aboard! I agree. I think that the inaction of the North Sea Campgain might have contributed to some of the grandiose plans that he hatched when he was First Lord: in addition to the Dardanelles Offensive, I think that there was also a plot to use British ships to land Russian troops on the Baltic Coast and then march on Berlin That plan did exist, but it wasn't Churchill's: it was Fisher's. Fisher and Churchill had gotten into a long row about where to open up a second front with the Central Powers - Churchill favoured the Ottoman Empire at Gallipoli, believing the Entente could quickly sieze Constantinople and open supplies to Russia via the Black Sea. He also believed that once the Ottomans surrendered, the Entente could March up through the Balkans and relieve Serbia. Fisher favoured attacking Germany directly, and even laid down 3 'large light cruisers' designed for coastal operations (all three would be converted into Aircraft Carriers after Fisher was forced to resign in 1916, and their 2 15-inch guns each would eventually go to HMS Vanguard in the 1940s). Needless to say, Churchill won the argument. Quite right! It was Fisher's brainchild. I must have been thinking of Operation Catherine, which was a WWII plan by Churchill to send a surface force, led by a heavily modified group of R-Class Battleships, with carrier support to interdict German shipping in the Baltic.
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Post by boomboomf22 on May 1, 2017 17:14:33 GMT -6
the more I hear about him the more the description of Fisher as a "Lighthouse, with moments where his briliance illuminates all and he is stunningly right, but long periods of darkness in between" becomes increasingly right seeming.
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 1, 2017 18:08:24 GMT -6
wicked AAR - i think i have to try this game!
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Post by babylon218 on May 2, 2017 3:11:47 GMT -6
the more I hear about him the more the description of Fisher as a "Lighthouse, with moments where his briliance illuminates all and he is stunningly right, but long periods of darkness in between" becomes increasingly right seeming. I think probably the best term I've heard to describe Fisher is 'tempestuous'. He was brilliant in his own way, but he knew it. He was incapable of acknowledging his own mistakes and was entirely convinced of his own righteousness. He was virtually impossible to work with according to accounts and totally uncompromising.
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