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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 11, 2017 12:50:36 GMT -6
If you look at Naval literature, few ships have received as much attention like the cruises of SMS Emden in late 1914. However even though the community has seen some excellent naval games during the last years (including SAI and RTW) I wonder why there has been no naval game with a single Special or at least additional focus on the kaiser's raiders since the days of Strategic Naval Gunnery (SNG) which is unfortunately not supported anymore. Does any one have an explanation for this phenomenon? Is it the fear of uneventful cruises on vast oceans? I think this wouldn't necessarily be the case if a relevant game would offer the following features and a complete "list of Odds", raider captains had to cope with : - Dynamic campaign environment
- Full amount of historic WW1 raiders: Emden, Karlsruhe, Königsberg, von Spees squadron, AMCs (e.g. Kaiser Wilhelm der Große, Kronprinz Wilhelm) etc.
- Full amount of historic entente overeas bases and raider hunters (British, French, Russian and Japanese)
- Replenishment problems and solutions (like once offered in TAS)
- Option to board enemy merchs and to use them for replenishment or even AMC purposes
- Option to use landing parties, e.g. with randomized results
- Battle bonus for surprise attacks
- Alarm messages by attacked allied merchs or bases from time to time (similar to TAS)
- Randomized engine troubles and crew diseases
- Mixture of correct and misleading messages
I`d love to see a SAI based game with such features - Just my two cts! Any thoughts and comments appreciated
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2017 17:16:57 GMT -6
If you look at Naval literature, few ships have received as much attention like the cruises of SMS Emden in late 1914. However even though the community has seen some excellent naval games during the last years (including SAI and RTW) I wonder why there has been no naval game with a single Special or at least additional focus on the kaiser's raiders since the days of Strategic Naval Gunnery (SNG) which is unfortunately not supported anymore. Does any one have an explanation for this phenomenon? Is it the fear of uneventful cruises on vast oceans? I think this wouldn't necessarily be the case if a relevant game would offer the following features and a complete "list of Odds", raider captains had to cope with : - Full amount of historic WW1 raiders: Emden, Karlsruhe, Königsberg, von Spees squadron, AMCs (e.g. Kaiser Wilhelm der Große, Kronprinz Wilhelm) etc.
- Full amount of historic entente overeas bases and raider hunters (British, French, Russian and Japanese)
- Replenishment problems and solutions (like once offered in TAS)
- Option to board enemy merchs and to use them for replenishment or even AMC purposes
- Option to use landing parties, e.g. with randomized results
- Alarm messages by attacked allied merchs or bases from time to time (similar to TAS)
- Randomized engine troubles and crew diseases
I`d love to see a SAI based game with such features - Just my two cts! Any thoughts and comments appreciated It would be my guess, that the problem is that merchant raiders and trade warfare is quite boring. They are almost always one on one encounters, with smaller flotillas chasing around looking for them, sometimes just one warship finds them and that's the end. After the age of sail, trade warfare was taken over by the submarine and it did a much better job. So, while it seems like a fascinating aspect of naval warfare and strategy, it did not actually have much of an influence on the overall war effort by any side. Just my opinion.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 12, 2017 13:15:59 GMT -6
If you look at Naval literature, few ships have received as much attention like the cruises of SMS Emden in late 1914. However even though the community has seen some excellent naval games during the last years (including SAI and RTW) I wonder why there has been no naval game with a single Special or at least additional focus on the kaiser's raiders since the days of Strategic Naval Gunnery (SNG) which is unfortunately not supported anymore. Does any one have an explanation for this phenomenon? Is it the fear of uneventful cruises on vast oceans? I think this wouldn't necessarily be the case if a relevant game would offer the following features and a complete "list of Odds", raider captains had to cope with : - Full amount of historic WW1 raiders: Emden, Karlsruhe, Königsberg, von Spees squadron, AMCs (e.g. Kaiser Wilhelm der Große, Kronprinz Wilhelm) etc.
- Full amount of historic entente overeas bases and raider hunters (British, French, Russian and Japanese)
- Replenishment problems and solutions (like once offered in TAS)
- Option to board enemy merchs and to use them for replenishment or even AMC purposes
- Option to use landing parties, e.g. with randomized results
- Alarm messages by attacked allied merchs or bases from time to time (similar to TAS)
- Randomized engine troubles and crew diseases
I`d love to see a SAI based game with such features - Just my two cts! Any thoughts and comments appreciated It would be my guess, that the problem is that merchant raiders and trade warfare is quite boring. They are almost always one on one encounters, with smaller flotillas chasing around looking for them, sometimes just one warship finds them and that's the end. After the age of sail, trade warfare was taken over by the submarine and it did a much better job. So, while it seems like a fascinating aspect of naval warfare and strategy, it did not actually have much of an influence on the overall war effort by any side. Just my opinion. … Thanks for your comment, that might be a possible explanation. On the other hand - you could describe e.g. Unternehmen Rheinübung with similar words? Take GNBNA, TAS or recently Atlantic Fleet – they all offer relevant Rheinübung or Atlantic campaigns even though e.g. Emden's, Karlsruhe's and even von Spees historic cruises were much longer, similar or even more sucessful in achieving at least some of their mission goals and also richer in their variety of raider action due to attempted or even carried out attacks on allied bases, captured ships etc. ... (btw, bonus for surprise attacks should be added to the features list). And even though all those raiders were stopped sooner or later a lot of allied warships were keept off from other tasks while searching for them. Last not least - subsimers never worry about historical failures or limited historical influence of single boats, do they … ? Hm, suppose I would have to write my own sim ...
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Post by randomizer on Jun 13, 2017 9:52:12 GMT -6
I still have my old copy of Raider and although it models WW2 raider campaigning reasonably well it suffers from the subject matter. It's probably the best game on the subject with many innovative rules including false flags, ambushes, mines and floatplanes but after one or two games it quickly lost its shine. Defending trade routes is tedious and makes for a poor gaming experience for all but a handful of the relatively small naval-wargaming community. Attacking trade is only slightly more rewarding but one can see from the RTW forums that many players demanded automation of the raider function because intercepting helpless merchants is, for the most part, boring. You might enjoy surface raider situations but the lack of games on the subject point to an almost total absence of a business case. Perhaps a first-person simulation, like the Silent Hunter franchise for example with an auxiliary cruiser rather than a submarine might have limited appeal but simulated days hunting helpless merchants only to run into a cruiser and suffer destruction does not sound like much fun to me. And before launching into Kormoran vs. HMAS Sidney, remember that this was the only occasion when a raider sank a regular warship and despite Kormoran doing better than anybody could reasonably expect, Sidney still sank her. So my response is the limited gameplay experience and small potential market will likely prevent any mainstream raider game although a crowd-sourced Indy production is not impossible.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 13, 2017 16:32:35 GMT -6
... Thanks for your comments. That's quite convincing - even though I still don't see, why exciting stories would necessarily produce a poor gaming experience in this case. Ok, hunting helpless merchs only is boring indeed, but that was v. Spees attitude too. Against this background he decided for a battle (Coronel) and a raid upon British wireless and coaling facilities (Falklands). Same applies for Königsberg (Zanzibar) and Emden (Penang & Cocos). From my point of view it would just be a question of flexible game design to enable such strategic decisions and options within a dynamic, randomized campaign environment, at least for the German side: Decide for an attack at Penang or the Falklands - who are you going to meet in the harbour? Will an attacked wireless station send alarm? Or better ignore the Falklands and head for the Northern hemisphere? Will the risk of engine failures, crew diseases and/ or coal shortages have an influence on your relevant decisions? Is the message of Japanese ships nearby misleading? And so on and so ... It wouldn't be the first case in which a good offer produces its own demand - even though the relevant community is and will always be limited.
Apart from that SAI showed that smaller scenarios with randomized elements can be very attractive too.
I have added to more items to the list above.
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Post by randomizer on Jun 13, 2017 18:10:04 GMT -6
While on the surface there might be some entertainment value in certain situations I cannot agree that it's either sustainable or worth the expense and effort to develop an entire game on the subject for a mainstream audience. The Great War lasted over 51 months and every one of your examples of "exciting" situations occurred in the first four. How does the other 47-months of a raider campaign game out? Regular warships proved to be remarkably poor commerce raiders, the exploits of Emden and Karlsruhe notwithstanding and captains Mueller and Koehler set the performance bar very high and seldom (if ever) repeated. Armed merchant cruisers made far more sense and for the most part gave much better value than raiding cruisers or battleships but the community demands raiding battleships and battlecruisers. Few stop to consider what a flawed, poorly executed and ultimately foolhardy Exercise Rhine actually was and that raider Atlantis arguably did more harm to Britain's war effort than Bismarck and Prinz Eugen combined. But Bismarck sells and Atlantis, not so much.
For what it's worth I am still running a GNBNA campaign as the RN and although that game has significant issues it also presents a reasonable approximation of many of the problems faced by both the Royal Navy and Hitler's fleet in the North Atlantic. That said, thirteen months into the campaign and each month is very much a replay of the month before. Accurate historically but a bit mind-numbing as a gaming experience.
The SAI engine is unsuited to model anything more than a couple of days in the life of a raider, I have built SAI scenarios around Emden vs. Jemtchug at Penang and Koenigsberg vs. Pegasus at Zanzibar and neither drew a single comment in the Forum; yet more evidence that interest in the subject may be limited.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 14, 2017 11:36:10 GMT -6
… Txs Randomizer. I agree that a completely new development would probably be too much, but why not using and expanding an existing game or campaign engine? E.g. SAI and its campaign engine already match a lot of items on the list, just a few would have to be added in order to enable a completely new raider experience as described above. - And there would be additional ideas on the horizon: Giving the raider player additional VPs according to the number of BCs the RN AI detaches to the southern hemisphere, perhaps in combination with an abstract, randomized victory of the Hochseeflotte in the Northsea, or giving the player additonal mission types like „Meet passenger liner with 1 CL for conversion to AMC“ etc, etc.… Why should this be less interesting then mining operations or „reach point xy with two BCs“ missions in current campaigns?
When it comes to campaign duration and size I personally prefer shorter campaigns with less ships in comparison to long campaigns with massive, time consuming battles, covering the whole period 1914-1918. Shorter and smaller campaigns are more in accordance with real life requirements and a good marriage ;-) and I tend to actually finish them. My recent attempt to build a WW1 raider campaign, based on the existing SAI engine lasts from August 1914 to July 1915. That seems realistic on the one hand (remember that Allied warships were tied down by Karlsruhe, Kronprinz Wilhelm and Königsberg until April/ July 1915!), while on the other hand one could additionaly imagine different campaign versions within such a period of time too (e.g. when it comes to theatres, ships involved etc., from campaigns for single raiders within a limited theatre to all German raiders, that were active in August/ September 1914) …
Again, just my 2 cts.
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Post by dickturpin on Jun 14, 2017 15:26:51 GMT -6
Personally, I find the rjw Russian Campaign a great commerce raiding game.
I also modded the ww1 Grand Campaign to include the Baltic and Channel; this had a commerce raiding aspect that worked well.
My opinion is that the Atlantic and Pacific don't really work for S&I.
In many ways though, small scale battles with cruisers and merchants are great fun and on limited geographical maps are easily managed.
I am very IT illiterate but can mod S&I with little effort.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 15, 2017 17:39:44 GMT -6
... Interesting idea to combine the Grand Campaign with Baltic Elements! Here is an AAR from my current 1914-1915 raider campaign in order to show, that such thing can deliver very exciting and plausible results, deserves more input and is so much more then just hunting helpless merchs: This turn I decided to sail with my Kreuzergeschwader only (i.e. without SMS Emden, Karlsruhe, Königsberg in other areas) cause my OPs are currently (January 1915) very limited. I chose two bombard missions. After the first one was accomplished I took the opportunity to chase some merchs (including one sailing vessel) in a near Entente shipping line in order to improve my lame campaign status. I was lucky, although SMS Nürnberg had engine troubles at high speed due to poor maintenance (or due to the odd position of her 3rd funnel ): Before heading for my Ettappenschiffe in the hidden bay (they had to stay there because of limited OPs) I still had to accomplish my 2nd bombard mission on an Entente base and decided for a night raid, using SMS Leipzig as a scout. The first result was some sort of shocking "Falklands in the Night" experience ... : What had happened? SMS Leipzig had run into a veritable Anglo-Japanese Entente squadron, consisting at least of 2 Bs (Satsuma and HMS Swiftsure), one BC (Kurama) one CL (HMS Yarmouth) and probably three or more other CLs. Leipzig was immediately deadly hit but managed to launch some last torpedoes that sunk B Satsuma while the rest of the Kreuzergeschwader immediately turned and run away: Thanks to the night conditions I safely escaped with the rest of the Kreuzergeschwader and reached my hidden bay with its Ettappenschiffe. It's now January 1915, my losses so far are AMC Kronprinz Wilhelm and CL Leipzig. Current VP difference is 175.000 for the German side. Victory condition is 260.000 VPs that have to be reached until July 1915 (see below). SMS Emden played a minor part so far.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jun 15, 2017 17:44:07 GMT -6
Final results and current campaign status as mentioned above (note that the loss list includes one historic sailing vessel):
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Post by dickturpin on Jun 16, 2017 14:53:57 GMT -6
Well done Leipzig!!!
Looks a cleverly designed scenario.
These campaigns are never straightforward. Shore batteries and torpedoes can add a layer of unpredictability to these campaigns.
I too find that by raiding you can rack up impressive scores.
The German AC's in general are somewhat under rated in S&I in my opinion. The 21cm guns generally out ranged many contemporary rivals (including many Battleships) and also enjoyed a somewhat higher rate of fire than their contemporaries. Consequently, if you have not modified them, you will be achieving your impressive results with equipment somewhat inferior to your historical predecessor.
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Post by hschuster44 on Jul 9, 2017 4:25:18 GMT -6
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Post by hschuster44 on Jul 19, 2017 15:06:51 GMT -6
Ordered and checked that game with its instructions for a few days now. You need some time to fully comprehend all the rules, but then it is a really brilliant game for the WW1 raider topic, full of even smaller historic details like e.g. coaling, hiding in the river Rufiji, raiding stations, loosing colonies etc. etc., everything based on a detailed world map that is divided in more then 30 sea areas and contains all relevant ships (stations) and their historic positions in August 1914. It is also possible to play solitaire games, even though you have to be a bit creative in order to amend proper dice rules for the "AI side". All I was missing was an "electronic version" - the idea was to use a text or presentation programme (one file for the original and for each of the 9 game turns!), containing one page or slide with basic area informations/ and August 1914 ships for each sea area, a convoy sheet and the KM ship log. Now a ship or squadron moving from one area to another (e.g. gulf of Mexico -> Panama) will simply "move" to the relevant new sea area slide with its name, it works fine - and as soon as a battle takes place it is possible to switch to NAW.
Surprising but realistic alternate history scenarios are always possible: During my current campaign turn (segment) von Spee tries to raid Tahiti in September 1914 with SMS Scharnhorst, SMS Gneisenau and SMS Nürnberg. There he meets AC Montcalm, HMAS Psyche, HMNZS Pyramus and HMNZS Philomel ... Probably both sides are surprised, good to know that NAW allows for that ...
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Post by vonfriedman on Oct 8, 2017 12:23:37 GMT -6
... Here is an AAR from my current 1914-1915 raider campaign in order to show, that such thing can deliver very exciting and plausible results, deserves more input and is so much more then just hunting helpless merchs: I have download the zip files of the SAI Raider campaign and thereafter I looked at the awesome Order of Battle both of German and Allies. Apparently a very thorough job was done to create a really interesting campaign But when I tried to start that very campaign, only the Baltic appeared and my German East Asia squadron just sailed from Danzig to bombard Windau... What went wrong?
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Post by hschuster44 on Oct 2, 2018 11:58:12 GMT -6
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