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Post by tortugapower on Nov 11, 2017 12:58:01 GMT -6
Howdy fellow Admirals, In my most recent series as Italy, I have come across an interesting situation in terms of national budgets. I am playing with HISTORICAL BUDGET. The budget ratios at game start are included in purple, but here are the standings as of April 1907: i.imgur.com/VWWEu8g.pngMy curiosity here: why does Austria-Hungary have such a huge budget? They have not crossed the brink of war, although I understand their tension will raise their budget, but why would it have happened in a more extreme manner than my own Italy, who IS at war? Here, after my previous war concludes (which I win with minor reparations), we can see the budget discrepancy even more clearly compared to the starting ratios: i.imgur.com/Y2Wcv1b.pngQuick aside! My basic understanding of national budgets is this: - winning wars modifies the BASE NATIONAL BUDGET value, either through hidden budget increases or through colony acquisition - the NAVAL BUDGET is based on the base national budget, but is itself modified by:i - current tensions
- at least for the player, events (Budget ++ vs. Budget --)
So I might be missing something here. I don't understand why, so early in the game, Germany, A-H, and USA are so off from their base value, which obviously can't be accounted for with tensions alone. Thanks for any insight! ~ Tortuga
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Nov 11, 2017 13:06:47 GMT -6
An interesting observation- alas for my part I can offer no insight. I am famous for only caring about money when it is represented by red numbers- I would have a farsical chance to notice such discrepancies. I'm curious about the impending investigation though!
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Post by Airy W on Nov 11, 2017 14:25:05 GMT -6
I'm 90% sure that there is a bug with Italian economic growth. At the start of the game, they have a proper budget, eventually they fall way behind.
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Post by archelaos on Nov 11, 2017 15:05:29 GMT -6
Germany, AH and USA have "rapid economy growth" modifier in their files. Though I do not think it should provide them with such massive bonuses - those should be faster growth of national resources, not bloated budgets from the get go.
Italy on the other hand has stuff like corruption. It would be interesting to test if this standard or a fluke, as there may be a problem with the modifiers being too large or adding multiple times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 15:23:56 GMT -6
Italy Leader: Prime Minister Government type: Limited democracy Build area: The Mediterranean Game naval budget: 28,000,000 Historical naval budget: 10,000,000 Cautious Poor education Inconsistent naval policy Some corruption Dock size: 15,000 Oil: No
The question is not, "Why is their budget so high?" The question is, "Why is my budget so low?" The answer, is in bold above.
Corruption kills.
I haven't been able to find an actual definition of the effect, but it seems self-explanatory. Your money will disappear into a black hole, located in the Prime Minister's secret Swiss Bank Account.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 15:31:00 GMT -6
[Nation4] Name=Italy Name2=Italian TroubleRegion=in the Balkans Leader=Prime Minister AdmiralRank=Ammiraglio AdmiralName=Cuniberti BuildAreaName=The Mediterranean GovernmentType=1 FlagFileName=Rm.bmp DockSize=15000 Accuracy=0 DamageControl=0 FlahFires=1 Corruption=30 Research6Advantage=1 Guns2=0 Guns3=1 Guns4=0 Guns5=-1 Guns6=0 Guns7=-1 Guns8=0 Guns9=0 Guns10=0 Guns11=-1 Guns12=-1 Guns13=9 Guns14=9 Guns15=9 Guns16=9 Guns17=9 Guns18=9 Intelligence=1 Sigint=0 GGP=0 RGP1=0 RGP2=0 Cautious=1 GlobalNavalPower=0 AttentionToDetail=0 TechnicalExcellence=0 EfficientShipbuildingIndustry=0 UndevelopedShipbuildingIndustry=0 PoorEducation=1 Bombastic=0 Isolationist=0 InconsistentNavalPolicy=1 DesignPriority=1 BaseResources=14 HBR=5 BTL1=65 BTL2=801
I don't know exactly how corruption is measured, or what the applicable effect is, but Italy has 30 of it, regardless.
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Post by ddg on Nov 11, 2017 16:01:57 GMT -6
First, check the almanac for national resources and colonial possessions. These two figures tell you the base economic strength of each nation. National resources is the value set by choosing the historical or game mode at the beginning of the game. That setting does not alter the value of colonial possessions, which is determined by the same number that determines their cost in a peace settlement and does not change throughout the game except by adding or removing possessions from your empire. National resources are augmented over the course of the game by - Wars (additive)
- Events (additive)
- Rapid growth traits (additive)
- Compounding (multiplicative)
Different nations have different compound growth profiles. Austria's is probably better than Italy's. USA's is strong at all years. Germany's is strong in the first half of the game but weakens later on; Britain and France are the opposite. (This I have to extrapolate from a one-game sample.)
Actual budgets are determined by (national resources + colonial possessions)*(fleet size)*(multiplier). B = C*F*(Rn + d*Rp) where
- B is yearly budget
- C is multiplier
- F is fleet size
- Rn is national resources
- Rp is colonial possessions
- d is discount applied to colonial possessions in the later game
C is the cause of major budget fluctuations. It is what rises in war and with tensions and falls at the peace settlement. I believe GB and more autocratic governments are better able to support large values of C.
Corruption probably plays a role but I don't know exactly how.
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Post by archelaos on Nov 11, 2017 16:05:24 GMT -6
Inconsistent naval policy is also affecting the multiplier, so Italy has in fact 2 budget reducing traits. I have INP in PLKC mod and I'm amazed on occasions how small budget I have compared to national resources.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 16:55:02 GMT -6
Or it could be the fact you deliberately tried to break the game by spamming 'Accelerate' and 'Halt' in the construction menu before this.
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Post by archelaos on Nov 11, 2017 17:01:23 GMT -6
Or it could be the fact you deliberately tried to break the game by spamming 'Accelerate' and 'Halt' in the construction menu before this. What do you mean? Is there any hidden effect on budget from accelerating or halting? I rarely use accelerate and halt, as the first slows down all the other ships, while other cost me without actually building.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 20:06:08 GMT -6
Or it could be the fact you deliberately tried to break the game by spamming 'Accelerate' and 'Halt' in the construction menu before this. What do you mean? Is there any hidden effect on budget from accelerating or halting? I rarely use accelerate and halt, as the first slows down all the other ships, while other cost me without actually building. There was an old bug that destroyed the monthly income calculation if you constantly toggled the 'Accelerate Build' option.
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Post by tortugapower on Nov 12, 2017 14:07:51 GMT -6
Germany, AH and USA have "rapid economy growth" modifier in their files. Though I do not think it should provide them with such massive bonuses - those should be faster growth of national resources, not bloated budgets from the get go. Italy on the other hand has stuff like corruption. It would be interesting to test if this standard or a fluke, as there may be a problem with the modifiers being too large or adding multiple times. I find this to be definitely be the most plausible explanation. Thanks archelaos ! (By the way, I understand why Germany and USA get bonuses over time, but I wonder why A-H is given an economic boost too? It doesn't seem to fit their naval build-up.) @slim : I think Italy's corruption does play into this, as that would explain why my budget hasn't gone up after winning the war with France. However, based on the post-war economy, it's easy to see that something is not just wrong with Italy, but definitely exceptional with A-H, Germany, and USA. The post-war budget shows that the ratio of budgets from game start are all almost identical except for A-H, Germany, and USA. Of these, A-H is the worst offender, being double its original value. Without any rhyme or reason. Also SLIM, you mention my accelerating & halting ships, and I can tell this is something that bothers you about my style. I very much understand that, as it's gamey (it's not something I enjoy doing either). But it almost certainly doesn't impact my national budget. So let's keep the discussion on topic, and not use this as a platform to attack something else.
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Post by tortugapower on Nov 12, 2017 14:12:28 GMT -6
Also, thanks ddg, you've summed up my knowledge of the budget as well. And from what you wrote comes the (gamey) piece of wisdom that it is better NOT to take colonies when you win a war, as the budget you acquire otherwise can be increased by the multiplicative factors, whereas colony income remains static.
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Post by ddg on Nov 12, 2017 15:36:29 GMT -6
You know, since Rapid Economic Growth is done through additive bonuses, it'll have a much larger percentage effect on Austria's low starting resources (5) than on Germany's (8) or USA's (13). Looking at your post-war shot, both Austria and Germany look to be in the vicinity of 50 million above what you'd expect. USA is further ahead, but it has both a larger base to compound on over time and a greater frequency of compounding, exaggerating the effect. Guessing that Austria currently has a marginally higher C value than Germany due to tension, I suspect this goes a long way toward explaining what you observed.
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Post by tortugapower on Nov 12, 2017 17:40:49 GMT -6
ddg that all seems very possible, certainly believable enough that I won't be scratching my head in bewilderment. I'm not very knowledgeable about history in this period, so although I know that A-H was growing with a strong railroad infrastructure, I didn't realize they were growing at the same rate as the likes of USA or Germany. If someone knows a bit about this, I'd love to read it, or even a reference to something which will enlighten me.
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