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Post by gurudennis on Dec 15, 2018 2:55:08 GMT -6
Even as a staunch supporter of freedom of speech that I am, I still wouldn't include German Nazi and Imperial Japanese symbols if I was the developer of RtW2. I'd make it dead easy to mod in, sure enough, but adding these symbols to the base game is just objectively bad for business (and the game *is* being sold for profit). Anything that can potentially reduce the exposure of the game on social media, hurt monetization on YouTube, or cause a halfway-justifiable social justice outcry, is most of the time not worth doing from the business perspective if you objectively weigh the pros and cons.
Of course, ultimately it's up to the devs but I'm going to speculate that it's not going to be a particularly high priority work item to do any such thing as the OP suggests.
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AiryW
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Posts: 183
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Post by AiryW on Dec 26, 2018 10:31:04 GMT -6
Are you gonna frigging spam a variant of this comment on every thread? Cause so far everyone I have opened today has you posting some version of it. You are incredibly lucky that the mods/devs on this forum are not like the average for most online forums or you would be gone already. *claps* mods *claps* are *claps* Nazis *claps* Even as a staunch supporter of freedom of speech that I am That's not freedom of speech though. Freedom of speech is that the government wont arrest me if I say that Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that I am saying that Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space. And more subtly, the reason we have freedom of speech is that we dont want unpopular ideas to be silenced when they could be important. If Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space we want to know so we can put on more sunscreen. The incessant need to include Nazi symbols in video games that people love to talk about doesn't advance this cause. If anything it hinders it. Conversations about the Nazis attract misinformation in the same way that other forms of crap attract flies. Then we waste time talking about the misinformation, keeping us from more interesting subjects. Freedom of speech doesn't mean we are forced to listen to it. It means we are allowed to say "hey, let's let people know we dont want to waste time with this dumpster fire." For that reason, I suggest a better flag that would be appropriate for ANY fascist nation: dumpster.bmp (9.5 KB)
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Dec 26, 2018 12:22:14 GMT -6
Even as a staunch supporter of freedom of speech that I am Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space. All I have to say is; why did you violate your NSA security agreement, and what committee are you on that this level of secret data was provided to you!? (thank you, I'll be here all week...)
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Post by noshurviverse on Dec 26, 2018 13:29:02 GMT -6
That's not freedom of speech though. Freedom of speech is that the government wont arrest me if I say that Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that I am saying that Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space. And more subtly, the reason we have freedom of speech is that we dont want unpopular ideas to be silenced when they could be important. If Harrison Ford is irradiating our genitals with laser transmissions from space we want to know so we can put on more sunscreen. The incessant need to include Nazi symbols in video games that people love to talk about doesn't advance this cause. If anything it hinders it. Conversations about the Nazis attract misinformation in the same way that other forms of crap attract flies. Then we waste time talking about the misinformation, keeping us from more interesting subjects. Freedom of speech doesn't mean we are forced to listen to it. It means we are allowed to say "hey, let's let people know we dont want to waste time with this dumpster fire." For that reason, I suggest a better flag that would be appropriate for ANY fascist nation: I have to disagree with alot of your post. I'm personally in favor of keeping Nazi/Imperial Japan/CSA/other 'controversial' iconography in for many reasons, both for FoS purposes as well as the interesting alternative history scenarios. I would support the addition of the flags of not only the historical governments, but also those of potential other types. Post-WWI Germany went through a prolonged period of political stability, during which it was entirely possible for a communist government to take hold. On the opposite hand, you had the anti-communist White Movement in Russia following the fall of the Tsar. In a RtW game, not knowing what the outcome of a war could lead to many interesting scenarios, rather than "I know if I force Imperial Germany into a revolution they turn into Nazi Germany". You say you don't want to silence unpopular ideas, yet the entire rest of this paragraph says the opposite. Discussion of Nazi Germany absolutely can yield important ideas that don't fall into the vast oversimplification of "The Nazi were evil". The most blatant and relevant to RtW that I see is how the aftermath of WWI led to the rise of Nazism. As a player, my end goal in any war might be to force the enemy to revolution in order to secure the most victory resources, but if this holds the possibility of ushering in a new, more militaristic government I must take that into consideration. Outside of the game, I don't understand how you can make the claim that suppressing discussion of a topic is somehow advantageous to freedom of speech, simply because there is the possibility of misinformation occurring. To me, that is like saying that the possibility of bad cup of coffee means never drinking coffee again. I disagree entirely. I think the distinction between law and societal values is often overlooked, and I hold that Freedom of Speech is a value. Legally, it is guaranteed through various forms, such as the 1st Amendment within the US, but as a value it exists in a constant state of flux. Even if it means gritting your teeth when faced with things you do not like, I believe that every person should seek to uphold that value.
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AiryW
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Posts: 183
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Post by AiryW on Dec 26, 2018 18:15:08 GMT -6
That's not freedom of speech though. Freedom of speech is that the government wont arrest me I disagree entirely. I think the distinction between law and societal values is often overlooked Well I'm going by pretty much the dictionary definition and the thing that conforms to the jargon. So I would first ask you if you want to find different language to convey what you mean. Free speech is hardly the only freedom that is important in communication. I would secondly ask you to consider that by blending two different principles together, you blend their arguments together and thus treat the support for one as support for the other. Labeling them distinctly could make it more clear whether the arguments in favor of one thing do in fact support the other or not.
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Post by williammiller on Dec 26, 2018 19:00:56 GMT -6
We are straying quite a bit off the subject of this thread now, so perhaps best to let it taper off folks.
As far as addressing the original question of this thread - my personal preference is to leave the swastika in, as a symbol for when/or if Germany turns fascist in the game...but that is not something written in stone, and depending upon other factors may or may not hold up.
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Post by noshurviverse on Dec 26, 2018 19:03:40 GMT -6
Well I'm going by pretty much the dictionary definition and the thing that conforms to the jargon. So I would first ask you if you want to find different language to convey what you mean. "Dictionary definition" can be somewhat iffy. Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both define 'Freedom of Speech' as being strictly legal, whereas Oxford gives a more general definition that includes governmental and nongovernmental restrictions. Language is a complicated thing and can vary greatly even within a single nominal language. But to get to the point, my personal understandings would be: Freedom of Speech in the legal sense is the guarantee through law that your government cannot take action against you for simple spoken, written or otherwise conveyed information. Freedom of Speech in the nonlegal sense would be much more generalized, but would encompass the idea that all topics are 'fair game' and should be respected as so, regardless of how controversial they are.
I'm afraid that I don't understand what this means.
I do not consider these things different principles, rather I consider one (legal) to be contained within another (nonlegal). FoS (nonlegal) is larger, it encompasses the idea that all peoples can speak freely. FoS (legal) is merely the enumeration of the nonlegal principal. I believe that embracing FoS in both senses is the best method for combating bad ideas, because when you allow these ideas to be discussed the merits and flaws of them are revealed. Enforcing nonlegal censorship (making things taboo to discuss) has historically been terrible.
Welp.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 26, 2018 20:12:02 GMT -6
Personally, I think the origin of the svastika is cool, it is Sanskrit in origin and means "conducive to well-being". In Buddhism it is thought to represent the footprints of Buddha. In Mesopotamia it was used on coins and the Navajo nation wove it into blankets. it's been found on ancient pottery in Africa and Asia. You can even find it on Medieval Churches. It was found in 1800 instances in the ancient Greek city of Troy by Heinrich Schliemann in the 1870's. "Much ado about Nothing"
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Post by mycophobia on Dec 27, 2018 5:17:06 GMT -6
Worth noting that true Swastika and the Nazi Hakenkreuz are not entirely the same, notably the Nazi Hakenkreuz are usually (but not always) tilted 45 degrees, this is not the case with Swastika as it appears in most eastern religious use. Also even the Hakenkreuz itself is not even a Nazi invasion but fairly common decoration in the Nordic countries in the 19-20th century(notably Finland).
In any case, I believe Swastika should be included if the game wish to depict Nazi Germany, but given the fact that RTW is fundamentally a game to explore alternative historical development, it could well be an flag that whoever overthrew the Kaiser came up with. I wont really sweat over the fact that the swastika isn't included for the above reason, but I don't agree with the notion that because the evil of Nazism we should simply avoid depicting the symbol. I feel there is an appropriate time and place in which the symbol can, or even should be displayed. Will I be okay with a teacher walking in with a Nazi armband into an elementary school, most likely not. Do I want swastika censored out of historical photos in a book I read about rise of Nazi Germany? Certainly not. This game falls in somewhere in between the two, there is no significant societal value to putting the Swastika in a game like RTW, but I don't see why there is need in opposing its inclusion either. I don't think it is appropriate simply brand discussion regarding inclusion of swastika as "attracting misinformation".It is a piece of history, whether its harmful or tasteless depends entirely on how its used.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 11:56:31 GMT -6
i never worry about swastikas being included in any WW2 game since someone always mods them in anyways This. Seems a silly topic, to worry about a flag texture.
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Post by hardlec on Jan 3, 2019 7:57:23 GMT -6
Yes to Swastikas. Yes to the Hammer and Sickle.
NEVER FORGET
The uncomfortable lessons of history must be taught to our children.
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zoomar
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by zoomar on Mar 21, 2019 14:51:41 GMT -6
In my opinion, RTW and RTW2 are not "historical" games, since from the first turn on 1900 the player is creating and managing a fleet that never existed in history. By 1905 wars will have occurred that never occurred in our history, and by 1920 imperial Germany and Czarist Russia may not only still be surviving, but be the dominant powers in the world. To worry about whether or not their should be swastikas or hammers and sickles on flags seems irrelevant. Anyway, doesn't RTW allow players to design their own flags, so if somebody wants to can't they use any flags they want?
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Post by garychildress on Mar 28, 2019 7:46:29 GMT -6
I don't know if rising suns are a problem with selling a game in Japan, however, if Swastikas are included, then the game won't be legally sellable in Germany, unless I'm mistaken. So I sort of doubt there will be swastikas as it wouldn't make good business sense to put them in the game. It's just as easy to represent the Germans with a black cross pattée, like most games do.
EDIT: Although the rising sun is the emblem used for Japan in RTW1 so I assume it's not an issue as the swastika is in Germany.
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Post by goodwood on Mar 28, 2019 7:52:13 GMT -6
I thought that ban was lifted in Germany a little while ago
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Post by garychildress on Mar 28, 2019 7:58:08 GMT -6
I thought that ban was lifted in Germany a little while ago I just googled and it looks like you are right. My bad. I guess that opens up the conversation a bit more.
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