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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 10, 2018 17:06:53 GMT -6
This thread is intended for people to ask for short definitions for game or period terms and concepts. The intended result will be that a cleaned up version will be eventually pinned to the front of the forum for easy reference by players who want to play the game but are not familiar with the time period.
Anyone is welcome to ask for or answer any of the listed terms. Please keep disagreements over definitions cordial.
Also, for those fluent in languages other than english, I would appreciate any contribution (for example if the German navy had a specific term for dp guns like the Royal Navy had LA/HA).
For example:
Q-ship - Civilian merchant ship equipped with a hidden assortment of guns and anti-submarine weapons. The ships were intended to look like a regular merchantman and to present an easy target for a surfaced submarine. When the submarine approached the guns would be exposed and the hopefully the submarine sunk before it could dive to safety. In-game effect: After the Q-ship concept is researched, AMC's can be assigned to CP/ASW mode and have a chance to cause additional enemy submarine losses.
DP guns - Guns intended to be used effectively against both surface targets and against enemy aircraft. To be an effective dual purpose weapon the gun needed a mounting capable of high elevation, relatively quick training and elevation mechanisms, a high rate of fire, a mechanism for quickly setting fuses for the proper time/altitude and a gun director capable of tracking fast moving aircraft in addition to surface ships. Referred to as LA/HA in the Royal Navy. In-game effect: After being researched, guns tagged as DP can target aircraft aircraft as well as surface ships. They will weigh more than an equivalent single purpose weapon.
What do you guys think? Clear and concise enough? I don't want to try to recreate a wikipedia page for each term but I want people to have a clear answer. Obviously the in-game effect is going to have to wait until we get more information from the beta-testers or the game is actually released.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Dec 10, 2018 17:16:49 GMT -6
I think its an excellent notion, even if it only exists as a forum glossary. I think ideally we might want to say we're shooting for 2 or 3 sentences though, as it would be easy for something rather obscure to develop multiple paragraphs. We don't need to know about Archimedes, just how the steam catapult works.
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Post by corsair on Dec 10, 2018 17:26:32 GMT -6
Looks good so far. I personally would like to see explanations for each of the various options on the design screen, e.g. belt vs. belt extended, the different kind of armour schemes, etc.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 10, 2018 17:27:39 GMT -6
I think I like noshurviverse 's format. Make the in-game effect a seperate line. Q-Ship: A merchant ship armed with concealed guns, Q-ships were first utilized by Great Britain during World War I in an attempt to combat the German submarine (U-boat) menace. Q-ships sailed in areas suspected to be patrolled by U-boats, intentionally looking like easy prey in an attempt to entice a U-boat into attacking via the U-boat's deck mounted gun. Once the U-boat surfaced and engaged the Q-ship, the concealed guns would be revealed and would open fire upon the U-boat.
In game, after the 'Q-ship' technology has been researched, AMCs placed on anti-submarine patrols will be much more effective.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 10, 2018 17:35:41 GMT -6
Looks good so far. I personally would like to see explanations for each of the various options on the design screen, e.g. belt vs. belt extended, the different kind of armour schemes, etc There is an appendix in the RTW1 manual for ship design (In the manual folder in the game folder) that explained most of those terms. Feel free to ask for more information on any terms you still have questions on. Here is a drawing that galagagalaxian made that shows the different armor places on a ship.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 17:53:04 GMT -6
Question regarding armor types: will there be any way to find out the inner turtleback armor thickness in the sloped deck type of armor? Is it even counted in the game? If no then I can just switch to FDOTOB type of armor even without AoN. If yes, how effective it is? If enemy guns can penetrate 15in of armor at 5 000yds (at 90 degree hit), how much belt armor do I need to stop it? The turtleback armor should protect the citadel especially against close range gunfire, but does it work like that in the game?
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 10, 2018 17:59:07 GMT -6
Graphic representation of the three armor schemes in RTW1. The dark grey areas represent coal bunkers which do provide some protection in-game (you will see messages in the log that state the shell's explosion was absorbed by the coal bunker). So keep in mind for CL when you switch from coal to fuel oil you lose that added layer of protection. That's why personally for CL I wait until I research the light armored cruiser tech before I switch my CL from coal to fuel oil. [So I forgot the point of this thread which was short, efficient definitions. So here are some for evaluation. Armor schemes in RTW1 (and possibly 2) Protected Cruiser - Scheme employs a sloping armored deck covering the magazines and propulsion spaces with no vertical armored belt. With the notable exception of several Royal Navy First-Class cruisers, was generally employed on smaller scout and colonial cruisers that did not have the displacement to carry heavy belt armor. In-game effects: Can be used for any class other than DD. All ship classes are limited to two centerline turrets regardless of the maximum number of turrets researched. CL are allowed to mount up to 8 inch guns in those turrets. In the design screen the "belt" and "belt extended" armor values represents the sloping portions of the armored deck and the "deck" and "deck extended" armor values represents the flat portions of the deck. Sloping Deck - Scheme employs a sloping armored deck similar to the protected cruiser scheme with the addition of a vertical belt of armor protecting the hull. Shells that defeat the belt that would hit the magazines or propulsion spaces must first pass through the armored deck as well otherwise they explode outside of the armored deck and do mainly structural damage to the ship. Primary armor scheme for battleships, battlecruisers and armored cruisers until the adoption of All-or-Nothing armor schemes. In-game effects: Can be used by any class other than DD and CL. CL can use after researching Light Armored Cruiser technology. CL with Sloped Deck schemes are limited to 6 inch guns but can have as many centerline turrets as that nation has researched. Can not receive the benefits of All-or-Nothing protection. Flat Deck on Top of Belt - Scheme uses a flat armored deck that generally connects to the top of the vertical armored belt creating an armored box. More of the internal volume of the ship is protected compared to the Sloped Deck scheme but the armored deck does not provide backup protection to the magazines and propulsion spaces for shells that penetrate the armored belt. Historically used once All-or-Nothing concepts were adopted, first by the US Navy and then most other navies. In-game effects: Can be used with any class other than DD and CL. CL can use after researching Light Armored Cruiser technology. CL with Flat Deck schemes are limited to 6 inch guns but can have as many centerline turrets as that nation has researched. Prior to researching All-or-Nothing technology the Flat Deck weighs less for the same thickness of armor compared to the Sloped Deck but does not provide any backup for vital spaces in cases where the Belt is penetrated. Once All-or-Nothing research is completed the AoN benefits are activated by selecting the Flat Deck scheme and ensuring that the "Belt Extended" and "Deck Extended" values are both zero. AoN will appear in the design screen next to the Flat Deck symbol. ]
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 10, 2018 18:01:37 GMT -6
This thread is intended for people to ask for short definitions for game or period terms and concepts. The intended result will be that a cleaned up version will be added to the eventual game manual or more likely pinned to the front of the forum for easy reference by players who want to play the game but are not familiar with the time period. Anyone is welcome to ask for or answer any of the listed terms. Please keep disagreements over definitions cordial. Also, for those fluent in languages other than english, I would appreciate any contribution (for example if the German navy had a specific term for dp guns like the Royal Navy had LA/HA). For example: Q-ship - Civilian merchant ship equipped with a hidden assortment of guns and anti-submarine weapons. The ships were intended to look like a regular merchantman and to present an easy target for a surfaced submarine. When the submarine approached the guns would be exposed and the hopefully the submarine sunk before it could dive to safety. In-game effect: After the Q-ship concept is researched, AMC's can be assigned to CP/ASW mode and have a chance to cause additional enemy submarine losses. DP guns - Guns intended to be used effectively against both surface targets and against enemy aircraft. To be an effective dual purpose weapon the gun needed a mounting capable of high elevation, relatively quick training and elevation mechanisms, a high rate of fire, a mechanism for quickly setting fuses for the proper time/altitude and a gun director capable of tracking fast moving aircraft in addition to surface ships. Referred to as LA/HA in the Royal Navy. In-game effect: After being researched, guns tagged as DP can target aircraft aircraft as well as surface ships. They will weigh more than an equivalent single purpose weapon. What do you guys think? Clear and concise enough? I don't want to try to recreate a wikipedia page for each term but I want people to have a clear answer. Obviously the in-game effect is going to have to wait until we get more information from the beta-testers or the game is actually released. I Believe that this is the best way to ensure that we all understand concepts, and technology for the game. The clearer the definitions, the more we can get out of this game.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 10, 2018 18:15:07 GMT -6
In the Protected cruiser scheme the belt and deck armor values are used for the deck since there is no belt. The "belt" value is the sloped portion of the deck and the "deck" value is the flat portion of the deck. Question regarding armor types: will there be any way to find out the inner turtleback armor thickness in the sloped deck type of armor? Is it even counted in the game? If no then I can just switch to FDOTOB type of armor even without AoN. If yes, how effective it is? If enemy guns can penetrate 15in of armor at 5 000yds (at 90 degree hit), how much belt armor do I need to stop it? The turtleback armor should protect the citadel especially against close range gunfire, but does it work like that in the game? For the sloped deck scheme, the deck value in the design screen is the maximum thickness for the entire deck, both sloped and flat portions. Yes, it counts in game. Shots that penetrate the belt do have to penetrate the sloped deck as well before they penetrate the magazines or propulsion machinery. Like Bismarck that makes sloped deck ships tough nuts to crack at close range. They are more vulnerable to structural damage though from what I understand since less of the volume of the ship is protected. The disadvantages of the sloped deck scheme is the deck is heavier for the same protection than for a flat deck and ships aren't protected by the armored raft concept so they are vulnerable to progressive flooding. Flat deck schemes don't benefit from having the deck backup the belt. Shells that penetrate the belt don't have to go through the deck as well to reach the magazines or propulsion spaces. Without All-or-Nothing researched they are still vulnerable to progressive flooding as well. Prior to AoN, the only advantages of flat deck over sloped deck is you should be slightly less vulnerable to superstructure damage since more of the volume of the ship is protected and the flat deck takes less tonnage for the same horizontal protection so you have more tonnage available for guns and engines. Without AoN, you have to keep at least splinter protection for the belt extended and deck extended regions or your ship becomes very vulnerable to progressive flooding. Since you can't use AoN with sloped deck schemes you always lose some armor weight to the extremes of the ship instead of concentrating it around the citadel which you can do for flat decks with AoN. So for these reasons, I always use sloped deck for my capital ships until AoN is researched and then I switch to flat deck with AoN enabled (zero belt extended or deck extended armor). Fredrik said it might be worthwhile to use flat deck (without AoN) for CL since there is a decent chance that larger ships are going to use HE shells on them anyway. They would be more vulnerable to other CL using AP rounds though.
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Post by pirateradar on Dec 10, 2018 19:20:01 GMT -6
This thread is intended for people to ask for short definitions for game or period terms and concepts. The intended result will be that a cleaned up version will be added to the eventual game manual or more likely pinned to the front of the forum for easy reference by players who want to play the game but are not familiar with the time period. Anyone is welcome to ask for or answer any of the listed terms. Please keep disagreements over definitions cordial. Also, for those fluent in languages other than english, I would appreciate any contribution (for example if the German navy had a specific term for dp guns like the Royal Navy had LA/HA). For example: Q-ship - Civilian merchant ship equipped with a hidden assortment of guns and anti-submarine weapons. The ships were intended to look like a regular merchantman and to present an easy target for a surfaced submarine. When the submarine approached the guns would be exposed and the hopefully the submarine sunk before it could dive to safety. In-game effect: After the Q-ship concept is researched, AMC's can be assigned to CP/ASW mode and have a chance to cause additional enemy submarine losses. DP guns - Guns intended to be used effectively against both surface targets and against enemy aircraft. To be an effective dual purpose weapon the gun needed a mounting capable of high elevation, relatively quick training and elevation mechanisms, a high rate of fire, a mechanism for quickly setting fuses for the proper time/altitude and a gun director capable of tracking fast moving aircraft in addition to surface ships. Referred to as LA/HA in the Royal Navy. In-game effect: After being researched, guns tagged as DP can target aircraft aircraft as well as surface ships. They will weigh more than an equivalent single purpose weapon. What do you guys think? Clear and concise enough? I don't want to try to recreate a wikipedia page for each term but I want people to have a clear answer. Obviously the in-game effect is going to have to wait until we get more information from the beta-testers or the game is actually released. I'm far from claiming fluency, but I could be a little help looking up German nomenclature if I find the right sources. From a cursory check about DP guns, I can't find an equivalent term. Since the Kriegsmarine didn't use them, maybe there wasn't a naval designation for them? Just going off Wikipedia (not necessarily an ideal source, I know) the German article on the RN's QF 4 inch Mk XVI gun simply says the equivalent of "It was the standard medium weapon of the Royal Navy against sea, land, and air during the Second World War."--rather than having any term directly equivalent to "dual-purpose."
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Post by rimbecano on Dec 10, 2018 22:51:27 GMT -6
dict.leo.org gives "Zweizweckgerät" as a translation for "dual-purpose unit", so "Zweizweckgeschütz" would be "dual-purpose gun".
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Post by pirateradar on Dec 11, 2018 0:15:56 GMT -6
dict.leo.org gives "Zweizweckgerät" as a translation for "dual-purpose unit", so "Zweizweckgeschütz" would be "dual-purpose gun". Sure, and that's an understandable compound, but I would want to check more when I had time and see if that's actually the word they used.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 11, 2018 5:27:28 GMT -6
German tends to be (even) more literal so DP gun would be Doppelgebrauchgewehr (double use gun) but I wouldn't swear to it. When a foreign term is developed, the german convention is to either (1) use the foreign term (das App) or (2) do a direct literal translation (das Panzerschiff)
Edit: Upon research, the best word used was Schnellladekanone (quick load cannon) and this referred to the main type of Kriegsmarine DP gun. They were also adapted to be the main mount of U-boats.
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Post by marauder on Dec 11, 2018 9:30:26 GMT -6
Skimming the net a bit, I found that the most commonly used words for dual-purpose guns in German are "Mehrzweckgeschütz" or "Mehrzweckkanone", which roughly translate to multi-purpose gun or cannon. The book "Die deutschen Zerstörer 1935-1945", written in 1995, also refers to them as Mehrzweckgeschütz if that helps. Edit: Upon research, the best word used was Schnellladekanone (quick load cannon) and this referred to the main type of Kriegsmarine DP gun. They were also adapted to be the main mount of U-boats. I'm not sure if Schnellladekanone (SK) would be the best word to use here, since it was pretty much the equivalent of the English Quick-Firing Gun (QF) and had been used as far back as the 1890s with the Kaiserliche Marine.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 11, 2018 10:12:34 GMT -6
Like many words, there's no direct perfect translation for most things like this. Whereas the English and French make their own words up for new things, the Germans always have been happy with whatever means the same thing. This allows for many synonyms and words with double meanings. "Mehrzweckkanone" (More purpose cannon) can also refer to a land-based anti-tank gun (which can fire at tanks or function as battalion artillery, hence the "more purpose". Here, however, we are searching for a word for a main mount naval gun that could also function in an AA role. The nearest historical example is the word "Schnellladekanone".
It's not perfect but neither is the SK-QF point as many later QF guns were put in as DP main mounts as well.
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