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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 1:39:02 GMT -6
I play as A-H and I am in war with Italy. Italy is near collapse I am waiting several months for their goverment collapse. Their fleet is almost non exist.
However this bring question what to build next. My battleship program is close to completation which will free a lot of funds. My fleet have: 12 MS - adequate and can be built quickly if needed 11 DD - adequate and can be built quickly if needed (note: they are quite slow however destroyers are still quite ineffective on both side so I think there will do until double torpedo tubes) 9 CL - 3 fleet cruisers are 22 knots when the fastest cruisers in the world are making 23 knots, they are still quite adequate, cheap and it seems no cruiser in construction could be signaficantly powerfull - 6 raider cruisers with speed 23 knots - they are fast, no cruiser is faster, their armament is better than most contemporary cruisers, but they armor is very light. They are really cheap 3 CA - There are 2 classes with similar armament only different philosophy in armor. Their main difference comes with speed as 2 CAs are only 20 knots, the remaining one makes 22 knots. All three are powerfull and only some enemy CAs have superior firepower and usually worse armor.
6 B - 3 built B are the weakest battleships in world however 3 new battleships under construction would be probably most powerfull ships in the world till start of dreadnought era.
The question is what to build.
I have already designed armored cruiser with this specification in 1903 before shipyard offer 10 % discount for the third battleship of Monarch class but eventually it was denied as to costly for ship which potential could probably be fully unleashed. The design was Sankt Georg class (you can see it in save file): speed: 25 knots (2 knots faster than any other CA or CL) main guns: 6x2x9" with broadside of 8x9" guns (much more powerfull than any other CA as 10" guns have not more penetration power)
secondary guns: 4x12" against DDs
armor: narrow belt with main belt 5.5", extended belt 5", deck 1.5", deck extended 1", CT 7", turrets 7", turret tops 2", casemates 2" (no other CA has that heavy armor with high firepower)
Situation (some ship are refitted with central firing)
I have already 3 centerline turrets but only 11" Q-1 guns. I expect that at end of war lowering intelligence, training and maintenance costs will compensate for decrease of budget. I have 71 M of reserve cash and by my experience up to yearly budget there is no worry about reallocation of budget.
After 5 months when the first battleship will be commisioned I can start new constrution program but what to build?
I do not have colonial empire so I do not need so much CA and CLs, DD are still not effective to build another ones and with 6 battleship only UK and USA will be much more powerfull. Germany would have 8 battleship however their most modern ones will be not as powerfull as my Monarch class. I do not want to build 3 centerline turrets battleship as she would be not much powerfull than Monarch class, only a little cheaper. So I am more inclined to wait however I do not think I can wait more than 1 year which I expect is not enough time to have wings turret and steam turbine.
Do you have some suggestions?
EDIT: I have played till Italy collapse in 5/1904. So now it is 6/1904. My budget is: -652 T/month Reconstruction: 2036 T/month
Yearly budget: 106 M Max. reserve I am willing to have to not risk decrease of budget: 100 M Funds: 70.5 M
Expeted months till 100 M: 12 months if there is no increase in buget, so I expect 11 months till budget is just bellow 100 M
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jan 8, 2019 4:45:42 GMT -6
A-H is my favorite nation to play - their economy explodes before 1910 and you can maintain a pretty big modern fleet through the game
i personally go for:
- triple MS (24 in your case at this time)
- 12-24 DD, budget dependent
- never more than 3 CL since that's plenty for scouting and killing other CLs
- only build CAs during my initial fleet build (unless playing Japan before getting 11"+ guns)
- finally i try to build 3-4 of each new class of B/BB/BC with 6-8 total capital ships in my fleet, never have more than 2 different classes of these in service, and after every war i generally retire my oldest class of B/BB/BC to make way for the new (my ships rarely exceed 10 years of service, even though i play at 10% research)
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 5:32:35 GMT -6
A-H is my favorite nation to play - their economy explodes before 1910 and you can maintain a pretty big modern fleet through the game i personally go for: - triple MS (24 in your case at this time) - 12-24 DD, budget dependent - never more than 3 CL since that's plenty for scouting and killing other CLs - only build CAs during my initial fleet build (unless playing Japan before getting 11"+ guns) - finally i try to build 3-4 of each new class of B/BB/BC with 6-8 total capital ships in my fleet, never have more than 2 different classes of these in service, and after every war i generally retire my oldest class of B/BB/BC to make way for the new (my ships rarely exceed 10 years of service, even though i play at 10% research) Thanks for your suggestion but I think more about what to build in next 12 months. MS - I do not need more MS as they are first submarines commisioned and MS could be built quickly just before the war. DD - I can build 600 tons DD with speed of 30 knots and 1 torpedo tube more than me 300 tons DD, but I do not expect they will be more effective but with costs 2 M they will be 2 times more expensive CL - I agree with you there is no need for large CL fleet, I have some CL for raiders duty as I have just researched coastal subs CA/B/BB - these are the most questions, what to build now. I cannot build more than 3x11" broadside BC which seems to me as not quite effective. I can build CA with Dreadnought layout of main guns of 9-10". In case of 9" main guns (10" has almost same penetration), I can build 25 knots CA with 10x9" (8 broadside), armor 8" belt, 7.5" BE narrow, 10" turret armor, 1.5" deck, 1" DE. But I think this ship would be much superior (costs ineffective) against other CAs and not match for even first class of BCs. I do not have information what speed the first BC in construction (UK) can achieve. This ship would costs about 66 M which is usually costs for the first battlecruisers.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jan 8, 2019 7:26:57 GMT -6
Thanks for your suggestion but I think more about what to build in next 12 months. MS - I do not need more MS as they are first submarines commisioned and MS could be built quickly just before the war. DD - I can build 600 tons DD with speed of 30 knots and 1 torpedo tube more than me 300 tons DD, but I do not expect they will be more effective but with costs 2 M they will be 2 times more expensive CL - I agree with you there is no need for large CL fleet, I have some CL for raiders duty as I have just researched coastal subs CA/B/BB - these are the most questions, what to build now. I cannot build more than 3x11" broadside BC which seems to me as not quite effective. I can build CA with Dreadnought layout of main guns of 9-10". In case of 9" main guns (10" has almost same penetration), I can build 25 knots CA with 10x9" (8 broadside), armor 8" belt, 7.5" BE narrow, 10" turret armor, 1.5" deck, 1" DE. But I think this ship would be much superior (costs ineffective) against other CAs and not match for even first class of BCs. I do not have information what speed the first BC in construction (UK) can achieve. This ship would costs about 66 M which is usually costs for the first battlecruisers.
DD - i start with 28kt DDs with 2 centerline torp tubes, as the DD's primary job is to chase off enemy B's when my capital ships are retreating from battle and 28kts is plenty faster than the enemy's capital ships early game. since A-H is self contained in the Med you can build them short ranged/speed/cramped early game until you get outside territories
CL - i feel building non AMC raiders is a waste since raiders only work good in groups of 20+ (i build 30 initially since the the group gets paired down over time). the purpose of raiders is to choke the enemy to force them to collapse so you get the most concessions, and using less than 20 raiders doesn't give very good results.
if you are fighting a nation in a sea zone that you have a base in there's no point in using raiders, you are much better off bringing in your navy and whittling down the enemy until you can blockade them and force them to collapse that way.
tip - group up your raiders and keep them moving, don't ever keep them in a seazone for more than a couple turns since they (seem to) kill more ships on the move, plus the enemy can't counter them as easily. also building AMCs works out great since once the war ends they all get scrapped and the lower maintenance lines up with your lower budget
CA/B/BB - any ship you build now will be a million times better then the 10,000t Bs you currently have. after my first war i often scrap all my B's to free up budget to build new ones since the capability leap from your first B to your 2nd is the biggest the entire game (due to a much higher dock size). yes sometimes the next war starts and i might only have very few new B's built, but they are often better than the enemy's so they can hold them off until your fleet gets bigger
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 8, 2019 10:14:24 GMT -6
If you have heavy secondaries I advocate a "fast" (22knot) B with triple turrets and a 9 or 10 inch secondary. They will be Queens for 7 years or so, even against early BCs. Save tonnage on the secondary armor, use only 2" for splinter protection.
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Post by aeson on Jan 8, 2019 11:21:12 GMT -6
The Erzherzog Franz Ferdinands are very close to being liabilities in the battle line if they aren't already, your 22-knot scout and 23-knot raiding cruisers are likely to lose what little speed advantage that they hold in the near future, once you start building fast heavy ships you'll want faster light crusiers, and it's too late in the game for me to think building large CAs advisable - Britain's already building a battlecruiser, you can build a halfway decent first-generation battlecruiser, and the other powers presumably are not far behind. If you don't want to supplement your minesweepers and destroyers, then, my recommendation is to either try for a few ~25kn light cruisers or start building a first-generation dreadnought battleship.
If you really want a heavier cruiser-type warship, I'd go for a first-generation battlecruiser - you can make a 25kn 3x2x11" with 9" belt armor and 2" deck on 17,000 tons, which is decent enough at this stage of the game, though I'd prefer to wait for something a bit better before laying down my first battlecruiser. A big armored cruiser like Sankt Georg would take almost as long to build and cost almost as much while being much more of a liability once the other powers start commissioning battlecruisers into service. A 3x2x11" battlecruiser with armor on the lighter end of the battleship scale for the period can at least fight another heavy ship somewhat effectively; a similarly-large 5-6x2x9" armored cruiser with armor clearly intended to protect against cruiser guns and nothing more will get mauled or sunk in a fight with heavy ships, and at 25-26 knots it's probably not fast enough to reliably escape anything after the first generation of battlecruisers, and maybe not even them.
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 12:07:18 GMT -6
If you have heavy secondaries I advocate a "fast" (22knot) B with triple turrets and a 9 or 10 inch secondary. They will be Queens for 7 years or so, even against early BCs. Save tonnage on the secondary armor, use only 2" for splinter protection. Would they not blow up after penetration hit?
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 8, 2019 12:10:31 GMT -6
In RTW1 Secondary Flash Fires (in my games) happen only once every 5-10 GAMES, not battles. Fredrik has stated that in RTW2 flash-fires would be more dependent on ammo size than 'secondary' status, but in RTW1 secondary flash fires are exceptionally rare (Fredrik once wrote that there was only one known case of a secondary flash fire that destroyed a ship, so it is extremely rare).
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 12:15:58 GMT -6
The Erzherzog Franz Ferdinands are very close to being liabilities in the battle line if they aren't already, your 22-knot scout and 23-knot raiding cruisers are likely to lose what little speed advantage that they hold in the near future, once you start building fast heavy ships you'll want faster light crusiers, and it's too late in the game for me to think building large CAs advisable - Britain's already building a battlecruiser, you can build a halfway decent first-generation battlecruiser, and the other powers presumably are not far behind. If you don't want to supplement your minesweepers and destroyers, then, my recommendation is to either try for a few ~25kn light cruisers or start building a first-generation dreadnought battleship.
If you really want a heavier cruiser-type warship, I'd go for a first-generation battlecruiser - you can make a 25kn 3x2x11" with 9" belt armor and 2" deck on 17,000 tons, which is decent enough at this stage of the game, though I'd prefer to wait for something a bit better before laying down my first battlecruiser. A big armored cruiser like Sankt Georg would take almost as long to build and cost almost as much while being much more of a liability once the other powers start commissioning battlecruisers into service. A 3x2x11" battlecruiser with armor on the lighter end of the battleship scale for the period can at least fight another heavy ship somewhat effectively; a similarly-large 5-6x2x9" armored cruiser with armor clearly intended to protect against cruiser guns and nothing more will get mauled or sunk in a fight with heavy ships, and at 25-26 knots it's probably not fast enough to reliably escape anything after the first generation of battlecruisers, and maybe not even them.
Did you count aeson that I am playing with varied tech and engines are less effective so ship would be slower than usually?
I expect Erzherzogs would be motherballed after new generation of battleship will be part of fleet. I will not probably scrap them yet as they could be usefull definding against blockade and as mothballed they would cost almost nothing.
To have protected cruisers with quality of Zentas but with speed of 25 knots, I would need 6000 tons cruiser with costs of 26.5M. It is quite a lot, it is 40 % of capital ship. I think Zenta could be still usefull next 5 years as they are powerfull protected cruisers and there are still a lot of cruisers with speed 23 knots and lower.
CA I am thinking of would be not mauled by heavy ships easily as 26 knots battlecruisers would not be probably for decade but I have similar opinion that battlecruiser would cost similar and would be more helpful.
Still I think you idea of new generation battleship is the best. I will probably priorize ship design at maximum to get wing turrets in 12 months.
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Post by aeson on Jan 8, 2019 13:11:40 GMT -6
Did you count aeson that I am playing with varied tech and engines are less effective so ship would be slower than usually?
Unless the design screen is lying... ... you can build this, or something similar. Halfway decent first-generation battlecruiser capable of 25 knots, armed with six 11" guns, and protected by 9" belt and 2" deck armor. Britain's already building a battlecruiser, and within the game first-generation battlecruisers are almost always capable of at least 25 knots unless they're Tsukuba-type, in which case they're probably capable of at least 24 knots. Britain is also building a dreadnought battleship, so Britain's battlecruiser is not particularly likely to be Tsukuba-type. 26kn battlecruisers are probably not as far off as you think.
Your Zenta-class cruisers are in my opinion extremely over-armored. 3600t cruisers are not worth enough to merit the tonnage cost of 2.5" BE and 1" DE armor, and probably don't need 3" B armor, either. It's a protected cruiser; all of its armor is essentially deck armor, and 6" guns won't penetrate more than perhaps an inch of deck armor until well after the Zentas, and probably even any cruiser you lay down now, should be retired.
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 13:57:14 GMT -6
Did you count aeson that I am playing with varied tech and engines are less effective so ship would be slower than usually?
Unless the design screen is lying...
... you can build this, or something similar. Halfway decent first-generation battlecruiser capable of 25 knots, armed with six 11" guns, and protected by 9" belt and 2" deck armor. Britain's already building a battlecruiser, and within the game first-generation battlecruisers are almost always capable of at least 25 knots unless they're Tsukuba-type, in which case they're probably capable of at least 24 knots. Britain is also building a dreadnought battleship, so Britain's battlecruiser is not particularly likely to be Tsukuba-type. 26kn battlecruisers are probably not as far off as you think.
Your Zenta-class cruisers are in my opinion extremely over-armored. 3600t cruisers are not worth enough to merit the tonnage cost of 2.5" BE and 1" DE armor, and probably don't need 3" B armor, either. It's a protected cruiser; all of its armor is essentially deck armor, and 6" guns won't penetrate more than perhaps an inch of deck armor until well after the Zentas, and probably even any cruiser you lay down now, should be retired.
Yes, you are right battlecruiser is better solution. I will try to wait several months to see if I cannot build dreadnought and start with battleships. Meantime I can get at least cross deck firing to have 8x11" on battlecruiser.
I was thinking about it and you are probably right that some belt armor and extended parts could be not armored or less armored.
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2019 14:48:47 GMT -6
Finally I start building dreadnoughts at July 1905. I have enough budget to build 4 dreadnoughts with only 0.9 M budget deficit. I laid down the first dreadnought. But I think that instead of the third dreadnought I will laid down battlecruiser with advantage of enlarged docks.
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Post by dorn on Jan 9, 2019 5:50:53 GMT -6
The several months after I started construction of 2 battlecruisers with AFKY layout and armor a little better than Budapest with speed of 24 knots. I preferred armor instead of speed as 1 knot costs too much without turbines.
There was a suprise in April 1907. I get 4 centerline turrets bypassing cross deck fire and X supoerimposed turret. I get earlier in 1906 better guns - 12" Q0. So I am probably the first who will lay down battleship with 4 centerline turrets. I am able to build at 18000 tons displacements ship which around same quality as 22000 tons battleship of foreign design.
Finally i decided to build battleship at 20100 tons displacement with 8x12" guns, belt armor of 12", BE 3.5", turret armor 13.5", CT 5", deck armor 2.5", DE 1". She has 24x4" single guns against destroyers as she has no torpedo protection. The ship costs only 70M, same as my first battlecruisers.
I get information that the first dreadnought of France (mostly probable next target as tension is 9) has speed of 20 knots, 6x13" guns (probably Q-2), 10" main belt, 2" deck, 11" turret armor.
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Post by dorn on Jan 9, 2019 9:04:07 GMT -6
I have got additional info during fight. I do not remeber it happened to me.
B Solferino-class Secondary battery hit DE* Flash fire! Ship blows up! Fire started log after battle: 23 15:19 6 in 9225 yds Secondary battery hit DE * Flash fire! Ship blows up!Fire started (CL Admiral Spaun, HE)
What is interesting that DE was hit! Solferino has 14x10" secondary guns. Is DE used for turrets top for the secondary guns?
EDIT: info from log added Quite interesting that CL destroyed one of best pre-dreadnoughts in the world from range 9225 at time when usually effective fighting distance is around 5000-7000
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Post by aeson on Jan 9, 2019 14:12:28 GMT -6
What is interesting that DE was hit! Solferino has 14x10" secondary guns. Is DE used for turrets top for the secondary guns? Yes, according to a quote in the Frederick's Tidbits thread. No idea how that works with AoN ships.
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