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Post by ursamaior on Jan 16, 2019 12:59:31 GMT -6
In the original RtW the changing of armor values was not allowed. Yet after WWI many conversions took place usually the uparmouring of BCs in line with battle experience.
Will RtW2 stick to the same principle or will some liberty be allowed especially in some areas which may not be historically accurate, but will add more fun, up or down armouring ships (especially BBs CAs) while rebuilding? The question also applies to torpedo protection systems.
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Post by abclark on Jan 16, 2019 13:34:32 GMT -6
It’s already been announced that 1” of deck armor can be added in refits. As for increased torpedo defense, it’s probably boring to be a similar bulge system to RTW1.
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Post by dorn on Jan 16, 2019 14:23:45 GMT -6
In the original RtW the changing of armor values was not allowed. Yet after WWI many conversions took place usually the uparmouring of BCs in line with battle experience.
Will RtW2 stick to the same principle or will some liberty be allowed especially in some areas which may not be historically accurate, but will add more fun, up or down armouring ships (especially BBs CAs) while rebuilding? The question also applies to torpedo protection systems.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Jan 16, 2019 17:49:11 GMT -6
I'd like some more extensive refit options to be honest, Japan did some crazy stuff with the kongo's.
Bulges should get more effective as the dates go on, tapered belts should be refittable to full belts, etc.
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Post by abclark on Jan 16, 2019 22:28:48 GMT -6
I'd like some more extensive refit options to be honest, Japan did some crazy stuff with the kongo's. Bulges should get more effective as the dates go on, tapered belts should be refittable to full belts, etc. That would be nice, but all the consequences that can come along with that need to be added too.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Jan 17, 2019 4:56:38 GMT -6
I'd like some more extensive refit options to be honest, Japan did some crazy stuff with the kongo's. Bulges should get more effective as the dates go on, tapered belts should be refittable to full belts, etc. That would be nice, but all the consequences that can come along with that need to be added too. Of course. A lot of cost, less efficiency, etc. One thing which should be added is bulges to add increased displacement. Kongo, nagato, and several american BB's got large bulges which not only made them more resistant to torpedoes, but also allowed thousands of tons more weight to be carried (armour, guns, etc), at the cost of hull form inefficiency.
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Post by jeb94 on Jan 17, 2019 11:16:13 GMT -6
I'd like some more extensive refit options to be honest, Japan did some crazy stuff with the kongo's. Bulges should get more effective as the dates go on, tapered belts should be refittable to full belts, etc. I was thinking more along the lines of what the Italians did.
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Post by admiralhood on Jan 17, 2019 13:12:22 GMT -6
My question about converting ship is are the total weight of ships still limited to the original design? The refitting of battleships is the 1920s and 1930s usually increase the weight by several thousands tons...
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Post by abclark on Jan 17, 2019 13:28:33 GMT -6
My question about converting ship is are the total weight of ships still limited to the original design? The refitting of battleships is the 1920s and 1930s usually increase the weight by several thousands tons... That’s one of the things I was thinking about. Without bulges or other considerations, those ships will suffer from being overweight, exactly as the Kongo class did. That can directly affect the efficiency of the armor scheme and the ability of the ship to sustain damage.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 17, 2019 13:51:35 GMT -6
Currently you are correct, there is no way to tell the game "consider this 26,000 ton BB to now be 33,000 tons". You can modify it in many ways, pulling off unwanted turrets (i.e. Q, P, etc), adding boilers, torpedo bulges, extra deck protection, but you will be presently limited to the initial design's tonnage. That is a good topic for conversation, and I will bring it up!
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Post by dorn on Jan 17, 2019 14:45:56 GMT -6
There are several issues with refits. - overweight - you can do it a little but it has some limits because of stability. It could be solved by bulges (USS Enterprise) or you need to save top weight somewhere else (as aft turrets for AA guns on cruisers)
- space - you deck has limited space, it limits you quite a lot. In RTW you can build armored cruiser with 2x2x10", 24x6", 24x4". In reality you problem would be space, where to put the guns. Same applied later for AA guns - armor protection - if you change tonnage, thus displacement your armor could be shift a little - it coudl have some effect too.
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Post by corsair on Jan 17, 2019 22:46:58 GMT -6
One thing which should be added is bulges to add increased displacement. It also reduced top speed by a couple of knots in some cases.
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Post by mycophobia on Jan 18, 2019 0:14:09 GMT -6
One thing which should be added is bulges to add increased displacement. It also reduced top speed by a couple of knots in some cases. In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. But in anycase, seeing we may have very long treaty period in rtw2, it will be very nice to allow more extensive refit programs. These can be decently cost ineffective and the most extensive of refit should really only be considered in treaty environment.(Most IGN ships would've been through all the upgrades if they can build new ones, and many, like fuso class, are hopelessly outdated anyway by ww2) I think loosening the current restrictions on refitting will be nice(an idea will be loosening them as technology improve. So you cant turn a B into a BB in 1906, but upgrading a 1920BC to something decently workable in 1935 should be an option)The cost can also scale exponentially to encourage gradual refit or discourage massive overhaul in all but exceptional circumstances like a treaty environment(The Italian dreadnoughts underwent some very extensive change, which I think should be replicable in game). It will be very interesting to have games where treaty limited new capital ship construction and see nations doing what they can to make their current ships competitive.
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Post by aeson on Jan 18, 2019 1:39:09 GMT -6
It also reduced top speed by a couple of knots in some cases. In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. And that is in all likelihood because of the modernized engines and despite the bulges, rather than due the Kongo class's hullform somehow or other becoming more efficient after being bulged. Also, remember when speaking of the Kongos that it was the mid-1930s reconstructions which increased their speeds to about 30 knots; the bulges had been added to most of the ships in late-1920s to early-1930s reconstructions.
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tuna
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by tuna on Jan 18, 2019 7:26:19 GMT -6
Currently you are correct, there is no way to tell the game "consider this 26,000 ton BB to now be 33,000 tons". You can modify it in many ways, pulling off unwanted turrets (i.e. Q, P, etc), adding boilers, torpedo bulges, extra deck protection, but you will be presently limited to the initial design's tonnage. That is a good topic for conversation, and I will bring it up! When you do, can you ask for ability to add more than an inch of deck armor? The Kongos added 4"... The cost of doing this should be what it was historically: a mountain of cold hard cash. In their two refits, the Kongos got new armor (both deck and added belt), new engines (with twice the horsepower), new secondaries, new torpedo protection and new firecontrol. These upgrades put together added 5000 tons of weight and 5 meters in length, and cost more than building a whole new ship of the new specifications. They were done anyway because the WNT banned new construction, but not battleships-of-theseus. (Although the added displacement also broke the terms of the treaty, but that's rather easier to hide than laying down new ships.) In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. And that is in all likelihood because of the modernized engines and despite the bulges, rather than due the Kongo class's hullform somehow or other becoming more efficient after being bulged. Also, remember when speaking of the Kongos that it was the mid-1930s reconstructions which increased their speeds to about 30 knots; the bulges had been added to most of the ships in late-1920s to early-1930s reconstructions.
Although this is somewhat hard to judge because the same refits that added the bulge also replaced the boilers with less powerful, but more efficient ones. This, with the bulges, reduced speed to 26 knots. When the boilers were later replaced with much more powerful ones, speed increased to ~30kn.
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