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Post by ursamaior on Jan 18, 2019 12:44:23 GMT -6
"These upgrades put together added 5000 tons of weight and 5 meters in length, and cost more than building a whole new ship of the new specifications. They were done anyway because the WNT banned new construction, but not battleships-of-theseus. (Although the added displacement also broke the terms of the treaty, but that's rather easier to hide than laying down new ships.)"
Well put.
Would be a way to circumvent treaties. Also if possible I would welcome some loosening on game strictness, allowing say 10200 ton ships with a 10 000t limit.
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Post by aeson on Jan 18, 2019 15:10:54 GMT -6
Also if possible I would welcome some loosening on game strictness, allowing say 10200 ton ships with a 10 000t limit.
I believe that you can make 10,200t ships on a 10,000t treaty limit as long as you're willing to accept penalties for being overweight in Rule the Waves. Pretty sure the treaty limit only checks nominal displacement, and ship designs only become illegal once their total weight exceeds their nominal displacement by 3% or more.
As to loosening the restriction on the nominal displacement, that's the advantage of the more autocratic government types in the game; the more liberal governments get greater resilience against unrest instead.
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Post by corsair on Jan 18, 2019 15:35:29 GMT -6
It also reduced top speed by a couple of knots in some cases. In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. Of course if you install more powerful engines that's going to overcome the slowing effect of the bulges. Since the topic was bulges, I was assuming the addition of bulges only, and no engine improvements. In that case, a reduction in top speed is quite possible.
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Post by dorn on Jan 19, 2019 1:57:56 GMT -6
This is very complex issue. As you practically get different ship.
On other hands during construction or reconstruction there were were a lot of changes which could be: - fire control - AA guns - radars - another small
This is not simulated on RTW (only change of FC), it would be nice to have it but I am not sure as it is quite complex.
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Post by ursamaior on Jan 19, 2019 5:13:48 GMT -6
This is very complex issue. As you practically get different ship.
Exactly. That is how in real life countries tried to circumvent treaties. OTOH I would not like this rule to be so lax that it would allow complete and multiple rebuild of hulls. As someone pointed out hull forms get out of date in 20+ years or so so to say.
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Post by bcoopactual on Jan 19, 2019 8:23:38 GMT -6
Would be a way to circumvent treaties. Also if possible I would welcome some loosening on game strictness, allowing say 10200 ton ships with a 10 000t limit. In RTW1, the non-Liberal Democracies (Everyone but France, UK and USA) can exceed the tonnage restrictions of a treaty by up to 10%. No cheating on gun caliber though.
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Post by ursamaior on Jan 19, 2019 10:03:59 GMT -6
Thx. Did not know that.
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Post by axe99 on Jan 19, 2019 16:54:12 GMT -6
In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. Of course if you install more powerful engines that's going to overcome the slowing effect of the bulges. Since the topic was bulges, I was assuming the addition of bulges only, and no engine improvements. In that case, a reduction in top speed is quite possible. I have a super-vague memory that the addition of bulges to the QEs (could have been the Revenges, one of the two) actually ended up making them faster - but I could be wrong, and even if I'm not, I definitely agree it would make sense in many cases for it to slow things down.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jan 19, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -6
Of course if you install more powerful engines that's going to overcome the slowing effect of the bulges. Since the topic was bulges, I was assuming the addition of bulges only, and no engine improvements. In that case, a reduction in top speed is quite possible. I have a super-vague memory that the addition of bulges to the QEs (could have been the Revenges, one of the two) actually ended up making them faster - but I could be wrong, and even if I'm not, I definitely agree it would make sense in many cases for it to slow things down. I do recall that from somewhere too. I think it was due to better hydrodynamics with smoother steel plates.
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Post by jeb94 on Jan 20, 2019 19:09:10 GMT -6
In Kongou's case together with new engines it comes out to be faster. Of course if you install more powerful engines that's going to overcome the slowing effect of the bulges. Since the topic was bulges, I was assuming the addition of bulges only, and no engine improvements. In that case, a reduction in top speed is quite possible. As built the Kongō class battlecruisers had 64,000 shp. After the re-engine they had 136,000 shp. More than double. That gave them 3 more knots of speed.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 20, 2019 19:56:09 GMT -6
With the thread moving towards engine power, here something interesting from a Naval Academy course - It would seem that the only ways, besides increasing engine power, to gain speed is to use a bulbous bow and lengthen the ship. If I increase the engine power, say from 60,000 EHP to 120,000 I will only get an increase of 28,800 EHP. That might not get us a real increase in speed.
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Post by Adseria on Jan 31, 2019 21:59:09 GMT -6
I have a super-vague memory that the addition of bulges to the QEs (could have been the Revenges, one of the two) actually ended up making them faster - but I could be wrong, and even if I'm not, I definitely agree it would make sense in many cases for it to slow things down. I do recall that from somewhere too. I think it was due to better hydrodynamics with smoother steel plates. Before I start, all of the information in this post comes from Wikipedia, so if you don't like that, leave now. Also, I'm going to ignore any irrelevant changes (like changes to armour or armament) beyond their effect on speed, since that's the purpose of this discussion. Lastly, sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR at the bottom.
I believe the changes you were thinking of were indeed to the Queen Elizabeth class. Malaya had no refit in the interwar period, and the changes to Barham were relatively minor, so we'll ignore them. That leaves Queen Elizabeth, Warspite and Valiant.
Queen Elizabeth herself had 2 major refits in the interwar period. The first (1926-27) added bulges, and included minor changes to the superstructure and secondary armament. The second (1937-41) was much more comprehensive, and included major changes to the superstructure, secondary armament and armour protection, as well as the addition of a catapult and hangar. Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't give her post refit stats, but from what I've read, there's nothing to indicate she would have been faster. My guess would have been that, at best, she would have managed the same speed as before her refits.
Warspite had one major refit, from 1934-37. However, there is no mention of her being given torpedo bulges, so she's irrelevant to our discussion.
Valiant, like Queen Elizabeth, underwent 2 interwar refits. The first (1929-30) added torpedo bulges and increased her displacement by ~3000t. Once again, Wikipedia doesn't list her stats after this refit, and the second (1937-39) included changes to her propulsion, increasing her power. However, due to increase in displacement from other changes, her speed was reduced to 23.5 knots (her as-built speed was ~24 kts).
As you can see, Wikipedia isn't much help for this particular question. The most useful one was probably Valiant, being the one that a: had torpedo bulges added, and b: Wikipedia gives post-refit stats for, but the nature of refits themselves (IE being many simultaneous changes, rather than one big change) makes it hard to get accurate data on the exact effects of any single change on the overall characteristics of a ship.
Incidentally, for those of you who might be troubled by my use of Wikipedia, I realised that the above was effectively a wordy version of "I don't know" and tried some more extensive research (read: a quick Google search) for a more reliable/detailed source, and none of the ones I found gave any more detail than Wikipedia did.
TL;DR: I don't know, but I don't think this was a thing.
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Post by pirateradar on Jan 31, 2019 23:41:37 GMT -6
One thing which should be added is bulges to add increased displacement. It also reduced top speed by a couple of knots in some cases. I think this already happens in RtW when you refit old ships with bulges.
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Post by aeson on Feb 1, 2019 8:52:20 GMT -6
I think this already happens in RtW when you refit old ships with bulges. It does. You lose 10% of the design speed, with standard rounding, when you bulge a ship in a refit. oldpop, if you are talking about engine power and only specify units once, the implication is that the units are the same every time you quantify the engine power. "I increased the engine power from 60,000 ehp to 120,000" implies that you increased the effective horsepower by 60,000, and if that is true then you do not only get an increase of 28,800 ehp. If you meant for the 120,000 to be rated, indicated, or shaft horsepower rather than effective horsepower like the 60,000, you have to specify that.
Furthermore, when you are comparing something like engine power before and after a refit, you have to compare apples to apples; you cannot compare apples to oranges. "I increased engine power from 60,000 ehp to 120,000 rhp" is effectively meaningless unless we know a lot more about the system than just the effective horsepower before the refit and the rated horsepower after it; effective horsepower accounts for most of the losses in the system whereas rated horsepower accounts for none of them, and as a result "increasing" the engine power from 60,000 ehp to 120,000 rhp could easily be a reduction in engine power - something which is concealed because you've mismatched your units. Additionally, if you've matched your units and are dealing with linearly proportional losses, then it doesn't really matter whether your units are ehp, shp, ihp, rhp, kW, BTU/s, or Calories per day; doubling the engine power doubles the power propelling the vessel.
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Post by jeb94 on Feb 3, 2019 0:46:21 GMT -6
I do recall that from somewhere too. I think it was due to better hydrodynamics with smoother steel plates. Before I start, all of the information in this post comes from Wikipedia, so if you don't like that, leave now. Also, I'm going to ignore any irrelevant changes (like changes to armour or armament) beyond their effect on speed, since that's the purpose of this discussion. Lastly, sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR at the bottom.
I believe the changes you were thinking of were indeed to the Queen Elizabeth class. Malaya had no refit in the interwar period, and the changes to Barham were relatively minor, so we'll ignore them. That leaves Queen Elizabeth, Warspite and Valiant.
Queen Elizabeth herself had 2 major refits in the interwar period. The first (1926-27) added bulges, and included minor changes to the superstructure and secondary armament. The second (1937-41) was much more comprehensive, and included major changes to the superstructure, secondary armament and armour protection, as well as the addition of a catapult and hangar. Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't give her post refit stats, but from what I've read, there's nothing to indicate she would have been faster. My guess would have been that, at best, she would have managed the same speed as before her refits.
Warspite had one major refit, from 1934-37. However, there is no mention of her being given torpedo bulges, so she's irrelevant to our discussion.
Valiant, like Queen Elizabeth, underwent 2 interwar refits. The first (1929-30) added torpedo bulges and increased her displacement by ~3000t. Once again, Wikipedia doesn't list her stats after this refit, and the second (1937-39) included changes to her propulsion, increasing her power. However, due to increase in displacement from other changes, her speed was reduced to 23.5 knots (her as-built speed was ~24 kts).
As you can see, Wikipedia isn't much help for this particular question. The most useful one was probably Valiant, being the one that a: had torpedo bulges added, and b: Wikipedia gives post-refit stats for, but the nature of refits themselves (IE being many simultaneous changes, rather than one big change) makes it hard to get accurate data on the exact effects of any single change on the overall characteristics of a ship.
Incidentally, for those of you who might be troubled by my use of Wikipedia, I realised that the above was effectively a wordy version of "I don't know" and tried some more extensive research (read: a quick Google search) for a more reliable/detailed source, and none of the ones I found gave any more detail than Wikipedia did.
TL;DR: I don't know, but I don't think this was a thing.
Warspite was first partially reconstructed from 1924-26. She had her funnels trunked together and anti-torpedo bulges added along with having half her torpedo tubes removed and her high angle 3" guns were removed and replaced with 4" AA guns very much like the rest of the class.
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