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Post by Adseria on Feb 5, 2019 1:00:59 GMT -6
Can hits damage multiple parts of a ship? For instance, will an engine room hit also damage the hull? If a large calibre shell (ie battleship calibre) hits a destroyer, will the destroyer take massive damage to multiple systems and components, as in real life, or will the hit only damage what the ship's log says the shell hit?
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Post by bcoopactual on Feb 5, 2019 7:34:33 GMT -6
I don't know for sure. Some of the internal mechanics of the game have never been described in detail because the developers want to protect those aspects of their IP but in general I would say yes. Certainly you will sometimes see notes added to the ship's log indicating that a shell that hit the ship caused splinters that damaged the hull and presumably some subsequent flooding. There is no reason to think that a shell that strikes the BE area (as an example) and penetrates couldn't cause both flooding damage and structural damage (the two kinds of damage that are tracked like hit points in an role playing game).
With destroyers, a lot depends on the size of the ship and the nation's damage control tech level. Early game it sometimes only takes one hit from a 6 inch gunned cruiser to sink a 500 ton destroyer. Later, larger destroyers can take more damage but since they are unarmored they are still susceptible to lucky shots that take out the feedwater system or electrical system. If the BB is using AP though the shell will have a good chance of just passing through without exploding.
In general, I don't see a lot of battleship caliber gun hits on DD. There is an accuracy penalty for large calibers against small DD for starters and I'm pretty sure the AI is programed to not use the capital ship main guns against destroyers if any larger targets happen to be visible so as to not waste main gun ammunition.
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Post by Fredrik W on Feb 5, 2019 11:26:58 GMT -6
Most hits to system items, like guns, engine room and similar, will also inflict some hull or superstructure damage.
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Post by noshurviverse on Feb 5, 2019 12:18:33 GMT -6
I think OP is asking if it is possible, for example, for a plunging shell to hit a secondary/tertiary gun then punch into the engine room. Specifically doing damage to multiple seperate systems of the ship, rather than generic structure/flotation damage. Something like that I can't say that I've seen.
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Post by Adseria on Feb 5, 2019 14:22:29 GMT -6
I think OP is asking if it is possible, for example, for a plunging shell to hit a secondary/tertiary gun then punch into the engine room. Specifically doing damage to multiple seperate systems of the ship, rather than generic structure/flotation damage. Something like that I can't say that I've seen. Actually, I was thinking more about large-calibre HE hits causing splash damage, for instance, hitting the superstructure, but the splash damages unarmoured turrets, torpedo launchers and the like. |
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Post by rimbecano on Feb 5, 2019 15:05:36 GMT -6
I think OP is asking if it is possible, for example, for a plunging shell to hit a secondary/tertiary gun then punch into the engine room. Specifically doing damage to multiple seperate systems of the ship, rather than generic structure/flotation damage. Something like that I can't say that I've seen. Actually, I was thinking more about large-calibre HE hits causing splash damage, for instance, hitting the superstructure, but the splash damages unarmoured turrets, torpedo launchers and the like. That's basically covered by events like "splinters damage hull/machinery", "splinters perforate uptakes", "Main/secondary gun grew cut down by splinters", etc, which can happen with any kind of shell. I don't think I've seen a splinter event affect more than one system, though. It's even possible for a splinter event to happen on a near miss. When main caliber guns engage destroyers, this accounts for a healthy fraction of the hits (I believe I even sank a ~300 ton MS once with a single 18" splintering near miss). It's interesting to note that the longest range gunnery hit ever was of this nature. It's not typically listed as such as it wasn't a direct hit, but at the towards the end of WWII, Iowa and New Jersey (IIRC) engaged a Japanese destroyer, which took damage from splinters at a range of ~35000 yd. |
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Post by Adseria on Feb 5, 2019 16:58:15 GMT -6
Actually, I was thinking more about large-calibre HE hits causing splash damage, for instance, hitting the superstructure, but the splash damages unarmoured turrets, torpedo launchers and the like. That's basically covered by events like "splinters damage hull/machinery", "splinters perforate uptakes", "Main/secondary gun grew cut down by splinters", etc, which can happen with any kind of shell. I don't think I've seen a splinter event affect more than one system, though. It's even possible for a splinter event to happen on a near miss. When main caliber guns engage destroyers, this accounts for a healthy fraction of the hits (I believe I even sank a ~300 ton MS once with a single 18" splintering near miss). It's interesting to note that the longest range gunnery hit ever was of this nature. It's not typically listed as such as it wasn't a direct hit, but at the towards the end of WWII, Iowa and New Jersey (IIRC) engaged a Japanese destroyer, which took damage from splinters at a range of ~35000 yd. I'm not sure I'd call that a hit, since a near miss is still a miss; I think the record is still shared between Warspite (vs Giulio Cesare) and Scharnhorst (vs Glorious).
Anyway, I imagine that splinter hits are at least more common with larger shells?
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Post by rimbecano on Feb 5, 2019 22:05:34 GMT -6
Anyway, I imagine that splinter hits are at least more common with larger shells?
I'm not sure. For near-miss splinter hits, it would depend on whether large shells tend to break up into the same number of fragments as smaller shells, with proportionately larger fragments, or into the same size of fragments as large shells with proportionately more numerous fragments, or somewhere in between. For direct hits, it's going to depend a lot on what gets hit, whether the shell is HE or AP, etc. |
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Post by williammiller on Feb 6, 2019 11:51:23 GMT -6
Anyway, I imagine that splinter hits are at least more common with larger shells?
I'm not sure. For near-miss splinter hits, it would depend on whether large shells tend to break up into the same number of fragments as smaller shells, with proportionately larger fragments, or into the same size of fragments as large shells with proportionately more numerous fragments, or somewhere in between. For direct hits, it's going to depend a lot on what gets hit, whether the shell is HE or AP, etc. From a study I read many years ago, using US 5", 8" and 16" shells, the larger the shell the greater the proportion of 'larger' fragments as a percentage of total fragment mass. Short story, larger shells will make much greater numbers of larger fragments.
Note: In the study they exploded shells in a large enclosed fortified pit and collected all the fragments, measured and weighed them all, then did a statistical analysis on the fragments with regards to ratios of fragment mass, fragment density per area, etc.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 6, 2019 12:32:32 GMT -6
I'm not sure. For near-miss splinter hits, it would depend on whether large shells tend to break up into the same number of fragments as smaller shells, with proportionately larger fragments, or into the same size of fragments as large shells with proportionately more numerous fragments, or somewhere in between. For direct hits, it's going to depend a lot on what gets hit, whether the shell is HE or AP, etc. From a study I read many years ago, using US 5", 8" and 16" shells, the larger the shell the greater the proportion of 'larger' fragments as a percentage of total fragment mass. Short story, larger shells will make much greater numbers of larger fragments.
Note: In the study they exploded shells in a large enclosed fortified pit and collected all the fragments, measured and weighed them all, then did a statistical analysis on the fragments with regards to ratios of fragment mass, fragment density per area, etc.
Is there a link to that document, I'm interested to read it. If you could provide the title of the document, I can find it. |
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Post by williammiller on Feb 7, 2019 10:36:50 GMT -6
Dennis - It was a USN study, but its been so long ago (mid/late 1980s I think) that I read it I don't recall the title. If I run across it in my archives I will upload it and post a link.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 7, 2019 19:04:51 GMT -6
Dennis - It was a USN study, but its been so long ago (mid/late 1980s I think) that I read it I don't recall the title. If I run across it in my archives I will upload it and post a link. That would be great, I understand. It happens to me all the time. Thnks |
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Post by Adseria on Feb 13, 2019 2:18:42 GMT -6
Actually, I was thinking more about large-calibre HE hits causing splash damage, for instance, hitting the superstructure, but the splash damages unarmoured turrets, torpedo launchers and the like. That's basically covered by events like "splinters damage hull/machinery", "splinters perforate uptakes", "Main/secondary gun grew cut down by splinters", etc, which can happen with any kind of shell. I don't think I've seen a splinter event affect more than one system, though. It's even possible for a splinter event to happen on a near miss. When main caliber guns engage destroyers, this accounts for a healthy fraction of the hits (I believe I even sank a ~300 ton MS once with a single 18" splintering near miss). It's interesting to note that the longest range gunnery hit ever was of this nature. It's not typically listed as such as it wasn't a direct hit, but at the towards the end of WWII, Iowa and New Jersey (IIRC) engaged a Japanese destroyer, which took damage from splinters at a range of ~35000 yd. Turns out splinter hits can damage more than one system with the same shell; I just spotted this in the post battle records.
"18 18:57 6 in 4105 yds Superstructure hit * D* Machinery damaged by splinters SEC* Secondary guns knocked out by splinters (CL Cordelia, HE)"
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Post by noshurviverse on Feb 18, 2019 9:58:55 GMT -6
I wanted to ask a question about the damage model system, because I noticed a rather odd hit recently.
At this point 5" guns of the ship firing had a range of 9500 yards, so this was a quite close range, flat trajectory shot. But if I'm understanding the hit report correctly, this round penetrated into the "citadel" twice from two different locations while also hitting the superstructure before the splinters damaged the hull? I've had hits like this rather frequently, but at the time I chalked them up to me not understanding warship design. Is there something I'm not getting here?
For clarity's sake, this was from the post-battle log. The ship being hit was a legacy CL with a 2" BE and a 1" D.
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Post by archelaos on Feb 18, 2019 11:13:06 GMT -6
I wanted to ask a question about the damage model system, because I noticed a rather odd hit recently.
At this point 5" guns of the ship firing had a range of 9500 yards, so this was a quite close range, flat trajectory shot. But if I'm understanding the hit report correctly, this round penetrated into the "citadel" twice from two different locations while also hitting the superstructure before the splinters damaged the hull? I've had hits like this rather frequently, but at the time I chalked them up to me not understanding warship design. Is there something I'm not getting here?
For clarity's sake, this was from the post-battle log. The ship being hit was a legacy CL with a 2" BE and a 1" D.
BE covers not only bow and stern but also upper belt and uptakes. Superstructure may refer to the upper part of "hull" that is built on hull proper.
So your log indicates a hit that entered through upper belt, then deck and exploded, with splinters penetrating hull underwater and producing leaks. That's how it would work on any other ship. The problem obviously is that it is a legacy CL, so it has protected cruiser scheme, so no upper belt there...
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