Could the AI use player designs as templates?

[rimbecano]

The AI in RTW tends to be fairly good at imitating the player's fleet build, in terms of numbers of different types of ships, but I've found that it tends to struggle with responding to the actual designs that the player employs. My strategy of deploying 2x3 AB BCs, thus, for example,  is probably more successful than it should be, because when the AI deploys BCs in response,  they're cookie-cutter historical designs that are woefully under-armored. If I go for a more traditional fleet build, the AI's ships still come out under-decked compared to mine, and suffer from my stand-off plunging fire. It might be good, therefore, for the AI to copy player designs, particularly if they have been successful in combat.

[dorn]

Feb 9, 2019 18:14:12 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

The AI in RTW tends to be fairly good at imitating the player's fleet build, in terms of numbers of different types of ships, but I've found that it tends to struggle with responding to the actual designs that the player employs. My strategy of deploying 2x3 AB BCs, thus, for example,  is probably more successful than it should be, because when the AI deploys BCs in response,  they're cookie-cutter historical designs that are woefully under-armored. If I go for a more traditional fleet build, the AI's ships still come out under-decked compared to mine, and suffer from my stand-off plunging fire. It might be good, therefore, for the AI to copy player designs, particularly if they have been successful in combat.

This is quite difficult part.

Creation of good AI is one of the most difficult part of creation of game. I think (my opinion) that RTW AI is good because how the game is done. To be able do good AI means that system need to be simple, easily to judge different possibilities.

However even that AI had some weaknesses. I have already written it on other thread but to recapitulate (may be usefull for RTW2 testers) the most weaknesses I can see are:

1. AI build around history designs which are used as default - player has handsight and use it. The main advantage of these handsights are:

a) better turrets layout - players choose best layout at that time which is not done by AI. And players used AB and ABL designs which saves part of armor (citadel length). The second think is players use better armor layout something as proto AoN. It means that even before true AoN, they used either complete armor on all ship (sometimes till better penetration of guns) or mainly to put max. armor on turrets, belt and deck and rest without armor or with only splinter protection. Historical designs has more amor on not important areas (secondary guns, casametes, BE, DE) so there are not so optimalized. Players used more engines tuned for speed at max. usefullness. This point could be solved by mods doing better designs more competitive.

2. AI builds sometimes ships designed a long time ago, sometimes even decade after the first ship is launch. Frankly speaking I hope this will be adressed in RTW2 as it should be not so difficult. Even in history the last ship of the class was build not so long after the first one. And on capital ships it does not happen that ship was build along 3 years old design, not mentioned 10 years old. I think this could be solved easily by either put strick maximum difference time or time with probability function.

3. AI designs randomly. Sometimes it copy players design, sometimes using some of default design however I can see one issue. The next class does not mean better. Sometimes AI builds smaller class which is not completely bad for cruisers but for capital ships it does not happen in dreadnought era. I am aware except for treaties only for R (Revenge class) as smaller and less expensive than previous class. Otherwise newer classes has same or better armamment/armor/speed. But AI soemtimes build capital ship withou superfiring turrets at time when AI have access to them or sometimes they used wing turrets even if AI has access for all centerline turrets and even sometimes after some other class with 4 centerline turrets are built. I think this point is the worst.

4. armor - AI ships does not have sufficient armor to players ships. Historically they does not have however AI ship has than issue in medium and long range fight as they cannot pierce players ships realiably but are pierced by players ship reliably.

It seems little more straight but it needs to be known that because of how the game is designed these all weaknesses are not so dramatic in game. However it would be better game if it is adressed.

[galagagalaxian]

The templates the AI uses in RtW1 are actually accessible in the Data folder in the same save format as designs the player saves, just with a different file extension. You can even add new ones with some file renaming and tweaking. I never got it to work quite right when testing it by adding a couple extra early destroyer templates, which had problems with the AI modifying the design (as it always does) in rule breaking ways.

I had loose plans/ideas of creating a bunch of additional templates (perhaps even raiding the "post your favorite ship" thread in the RtW1 forum for ideas), but I never finished experimenting with it before getting distracted by other things.


Assuming things haven't changed too much for RtW2 the same should be possible in it.

[corsair]

Feb 10, 2019 16:36:09 GMT -6 dorn said:

AI build around history designs which are used as default - player has handsight and use it.

The question of hindsight is an important one. My first thought would be to offer two general play modes the player could select for an RTW2 game: 'historical' and 'sandbox'. 'Historical' means the human player is restricted to designs which are appropriate to the era in which they are designing a ship (and the technology they have researched). This would be meant to remove the advantage of hindsight and put players more into that historical year. The AI, of course, would also be limited in the same way. 'Sandbox' means there are no historical restrictions, and both the human and AI player can take advantage of hindsight and design ships however they wish (within the limits of the technology they have researched).

To me, these are two different situations, and offer different challenges.

[dorn]

Feb 11, 2019 18:40:51 GMT -6 corsair said:

Feb 10, 2019 16:36:09 GMT -6 dorn said:

AI build around history designs which are used as default - player has handsight and use it.

The question of hindsight is an important one. My first thought would be to offer two general play modes the player could select for an RTW2 game: 'historical' and 'sandbox'. 'Historical' means the human player is restricted to designs which are appropriate to the era in which they are designing a ship (and the technology they have researched). This would be meant to remove the advantage of hindsight and put players more into that historical year. The AI, of course, would also be limited in the same way. 'Sandbox' means there are no historical restrictions, and both the human and AI player can take advantage of hindsight and design ships however they wish (within the limits of the technology they have researched).

To me, these are two different situations, and offer different challenges.

Frankly speaking I think opposite way is more possible. Restricting player is difficult as it means that there would be not enough choices met. Think of armor layout, historical ship has a lot of armor on unimportant part (in game BE, DE, secondary guns).
Opposite as allow AI to build ahistorical design with much more efficiency could be the way. But I think this is not nessesary to be in original game as this is easy moddable however time consuming.