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Post by Adseria on Feb 17, 2019 14:12:10 GMT -6
Is it possible to use aircraft to interdict trade in the same way as a ship can be made a raider? If so, does having ships with good AA assigned to trade protection help counter this effect, and is it possible to assign fighters and/or small, cheap escort carriers to trade protection as well?
And if not, why not? Surely aircraft played a vital role in trade warfare, not just in terms of launching strikes against opposing convoys, but also for countering surface raiders and submarines and supporting friendly raiders? I'd at least expect that having active strike squadrons and patrol aircraft in a region would have some positive effect on trade warfare, and that having active fighter squadrons would counter enemy strike and patrol squadrons. Preferably also add a chance of aircraft being shot down, if the game accounts for aircraft lost at the strategic level (which I assume it should, if only for the impact to the pilot skill).
While I'm at it, can aircraft be used to augment ASW patrols, either replacing or assisting surface-based patrols? ASW was the main use of airborne radar in the Battle of the Atlantic, and, even without radar, aircraft have a significant advantage over surface ships in ASW because of their ability to quickly patrol a large area of ocean. At the same time, airborne patrols would (presumably) be able to spot enemy ASW patrols, improving the effectiveness of friendly submarines.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 17, 2019 14:29:42 GMT -6
Is it possible to use aircraft to interdict trade in the same way as a ship can be made a raider? If so, does having ships with good AA assigned to trade protection help counter this effect, and is it possible to assign fighters and/or small, cheap escort carriers to trade protection as well?
And if not, why not? Surely aircraft played a vital role in trade warfare, not just in terms of launching strikes against opposing convoys, but also for countering surface raiders and submarines and supporting friendly raiders? I'd at least expect that having active strike squadrons and patrol aircraft in a region would have some positive effect on trade warfare, and that having active fighter squadrons would counter enemy strike and patrol squadrons. Preferably also add a chance of aircraft being shot down, if the game accounts for aircraft lost at the strategic level (which I assume it should, if only for the impact to the pilot skill).
While I'm at it, can aircraft be used to augment ASW patrols, either replacing or assisting surface-based patrols? ASW was the main use of airborne radar in the Battle of the Atlantic, and, even without radar, aircraft have a significant advantage over surface ships in ASW because of their ability to quickly patrol a large area of ocean. At the same time, airborne patrols would (presumably) be able to spot enemy ASW patrols, improving the effectiveness of friendly submarines. Addressing the issue of ASW, carrier task forces had an inner zone patrol for ASW. The fighter directors would vector the fighter on that patrol also against low flying aircraft. The Japanese were famous after a while, of using this technique. SBD's were used at Coral Sea on this patrol due to the lack of fighter availability. I can't say what the game will provide, but it was done in the real world.
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Post by tbr on Feb 17, 2019 15:00:32 GMT -6
Early in WWI German floatplanes and flying boats actually did trade warfare by cruiser rules, i.e. demonstrating to an merchant that they were armed, land on the water to check papers and, if deemed enemy sank the ship with explasove charges (or by opening the seacocks) after the crew and passengers left by lifeboat. I wouldn't have believed it but I have pictures (on the HDD of an old laptop now).
Early WWI had some odd civilized corners.
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Post by axe99 on Feb 17, 2019 15:27:29 GMT -6
This is a very good point - German aerial raiders in WW2 caused all sorts of trouble, and were the motivation for Catapult-armed Merchantmen and Fighter Catapult Ships (as best I understand it, more-or-less the same thing, but CAMs were merchantmen and FCS' were commissioned as warships). To take it a step further, when the US fast carrier task force (can't recall whether it was 38 or 58 at the time) when on it's romp through the South China Sea, it did all sorts of damage through attacking trade, as did the carrier that split off from the main force for Operation C (the April 1942 Indian Ocean raid) and attacked trade shipping in the north of the Bay of Bengal.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Feb 17, 2019 15:39:02 GMT -6
Land-based air, especially flying boats, will attack and sink enemy submarines during the strategic turn. This can have a significant effect, depending on the number available.
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Post by abclark on Feb 17, 2019 19:50:05 GMT -6
Land-based air, especially flying boats, will attack and sink enemy submarines during the strategic turn. This can have a significant effect, depending on the number available. Will the individual characteristics of the aircraft affect their performance in that regard? Or is it just a numbers game?
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Post by jwsmith26 on Feb 17, 2019 21:41:06 GMT -6
Land-based air, especially flying boats, will attack and sink enemy submarines during the strategic turn. This can have a significant effect, depending on the number available. Will the individual characteristics of the aircraft affect their performance in that regard? Or is it just a numbers game? Sorry, I don't have any information about that.
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Post by williammiller on Feb 18, 2019 1:18:39 GMT -6
Certain aircraft can have ASW detection and attack ratings in RTW2, which will affect the odds of detecting and possibly sinking a submarine. 'Flying Boats' are generally one of the better platforms for doing that.
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Post by Adseria on Feb 18, 2019 1:58:52 GMT -6
Certain aircraft can have ASW detection and attack ratings in RTW2, which will affect the odds of detecting and possibly sinking a submarine. 'Flying Boats' are generally one of the better platforms for doing that. Given that you're not saying anything about the rest of my original post, I'm assuming that airborne ASW is the only part that you've got nailed down?
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Post by chainsawjoe911 on Feb 18, 2019 7:00:06 GMT -6
will flying boats be able to mount radar to detect submarines? also on that related topic, can they mount those massive magnets and help with mine clearance?
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Post by noshurviverse on Feb 18, 2019 7:15:52 GMT -6
Given that you're not saying anything about the rest of my original post, I'm assuming that airborne ASW is the only part that you've got nailed down? While I've got no insider information, I wouldn't be surprised if aircraft had no effect on merchant sinkings. The reason I speculate this is that if they did so, submarines might be made entirely obsolete in game. Subs as they exist in RtW1 are largely for two purposes:
•Apply constant unrest pressure due to merchant sinkings •Get the occasional lucky sinking of a major enemy ship
While I think they might give spotting notices in battle, that's rarely a big deal for most engagements. Now let's think of what aircraft do (or are suspected of doing)
•Sink enemy submarines •Scout in battle (much more effectively) •Attack enemy ships in battle (actively) •Provide defense against enemy air attack in battle ○(maybe) Apply constant unrest pressure due to merchant sinkings
Now if all that is the case, what purpose do submarines play? Why wouldn't I take every penny from the sub budget and shift it into aircraft production or NAS construction? Now, I entirely agree that historically aircraft played a role in attacking merchant shipping, especially in Europe, but I think it would have to be limited to make sure submarines still had a purpose. Of course, this all assumes that submarines have not been expanded upon from their state in RtW1.
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Post by Adseria on Feb 18, 2019 7:28:22 GMT -6
Given that you're not saying anything about the rest of my original post, I'm assuming that airborne ASW is the only part that you've got nailed down? While I've got no insider information, I wouldn't be surprised if aircraft had no effect on merchant sinkings. The reason I speculate this is that if they did so, submarines might be made entirely obsolete in game. Subs as they exist in RtW1 are largely for two purposes:
•Apply constant unrest pressure due to merchant sinkings •Get the occasional lucky sinking of a major enemy ship
While I think they might give spotting notices in battle, that's rarely a big deal for most engagements. Now let's think of what aircraft do (or are suspected of doing)
•Sink enemy submarines •Scout in battle (much more effectively) •Attack enemy ships in battle (actively) •Provide defense against enemy air attack in battle ○(maybe) Apply constant unrest pressure due to merchant sinkings
Now if all that is the case, what purpose do submarines play? Why wouldn't I take every penny from the sub budget and shift it into aircraft production or NAS construction? Now, I entirely agree that historically aircraft played a role in attacking merchant shipping, especially in Europe, but I think it would have to be limited to make sure submarines still had a purpose. Of course, this all assumes that submarines have not been expanded upon from their state in RtW1.
This is a good point. Maybe make it so that a large number of aircraft are required to have the same effect as a single submarine? That way, submarines are a more cost-effective option, but aircraft are, as you say, more versatile.
The other option, as you say, is to make submarines more useful. The only way I can think of to do that is to effectively allow them the same options as surface ships in combat, letting them move and fight (and, obviously, submerge), rather than only giving sighting reports. Since this would obviously be a major change, it probably wouldn't be in the initial release. Maybe an expansion focusing on trade warfare in general, to make it more interactive?
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Post by halseyincarnate on Feb 18, 2019 10:00:09 GMT -6
Subs would/could still have the advantage of range and stealth. Take Germany for example, U-boats were able to operate from Europe to North America while german aircraft, aside from the occasional FW-200 and the like, were limited to coastal France and had to deal with the RAF/USAAF.
In areas like the Mediterranean where you can have many airbases near shipping routs airplanes might be more effective but submarines would be able to effectively fight in more open oceans and places airplanes could only reach with a carrier (which would require that carrier not getting spotted/sunk).
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Post by akosjaccik on Feb 18, 2019 10:30:26 GMT -6
Subs would/could still have the advantage of range and stealth.(...) Problem is, these factors are not in play at RtW's level of abstraction, hence the "gamey solution". One could maybe argue for different modifiers for subs or aircraft for different theaters like the Mediterranean or US west coast etc. and work somehow with that (which is still a big a question as ABs are localized but subs are not), but frankly, as half of RtW's features and mechanisms are pretty much undocumented or undisclosed for some weird reason, even if such system would be in place, either... - players would or would not be properly informed about this
- if they would, it would or would not mean anything in terms of gameplay or the opposite, it would be exploitable to kingdom come - ...or if all is well, at what point would players commit seppuku for micromanaging subs and long-range air for some modifier numbers.
For these reasons while at certain points of the gameplay I am on an ongoing full-fledged crusade for more complexity (logistics and organization, eppur si muove!), I'd be very much content with the gordian-knot-like solution of aircraft simply not attacking merchant shipping. ...at least until the current "ocean zone"-system is in place instead of something to do with action radiuses.
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zoomar
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by zoomar on Mar 22, 2019 12:23:33 GMT -6
Since the game will apparently include airships to some extent, will they have value, either as AI units in the tactical game or as indirect assets for ASW and trade warfare in the strategic game in the same way as submarines are handled. Will the player design them or, like submarines chose a general type of airship ("patrol airship") and just build them?
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