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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 9:00:23 GMT -6
I decided to start new AAR for UK at start of century. As I am not native English speaker and I can see a lot of AAR with excellent narration I decided to do it a little different.
It would be more about story of design the ships.
House rules
- any refit could be done only in home area only - foreign shipyards could not be used - small fleet size - game budget - no all forward guns in capital ship design till 1920
If there is interest to design ships by members I would welcome than and it would be done similar way as it was by aeson . Otherwise there will be just discussion about new designs and strategy of Royal Navy.
However I set some "rules" for the strategy of Royal Navy which will need to be followed.
Strategy of Royal Navy - to be leader of any class of ships, detailed: - capital ships (BB, B, BC) - first class cruisers (AC, CA) - second class cruisers (CL) - destroyers (DD) - as defending world-wide empire numbers are more important than the quality if the quality is adequate
As soon as Royal Navy would be not leading in any of these categories (by numbers, tonnage, overal strength) the first task would be remedy it.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 9:05:12 GMT -6
Foreign stations commitments
6000 tons - West Africa, Indian Ocean, Southeast Asia, North American East coast, The Caribbean 20000 tons - The Mediterranean
Decision done:
The Mediterranean - mix of armored cruisers, protected cruisers and destroyers Other stations - protected cruisers
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 9:43:19 GMT -6
Foreign station protected cruiser
The basic principle is to meet critera with less cost as possible but still have ships that are able to protect colonies. As for all stations except the Mediterranean is 6000 tons required there are several ways how to do it using protected cruisers:
1. general large protected cruiser of 6000 tons 2. large protected cruiser for colonial services of 4800 tons 3. two general protected cruisers of 3000 tons 4. two protected cruisers for colonial services of 2400 tons
So there are 2 options to mix in. Use 2 cruisers which could help thwarting of enemy cruisers but sinking them would be more difficult or having one large cruiser which have more difficulty to find enemy raiders but would be quite superior with other risk in case of needed repairs. The second option is to save 20 % of tonnage designing cruiser for colonial duties.
The decision is to have 2 cruisers per station plus one reserve cruiser for case of needed refit/repairs meaning 11 colonial cruisers of 2400 tons total.
Comus class colonial protected cruiser
Main issue is to do max in 2400 tons budget. The first is question of speed. 23 knots is out of question as it would take too much tonnage, 21 knots would be to slow, so optimum would be 22 knots, 21 knots if there is no other choice. Medium range is minimum and long range is not needed as Royal Navy has bases around the globe.
Another question is weapons. Submerged torpedo tubes are forbidden for 2400 tons cruiser and as colonial cruiser would fight mainly enemy cruises 1 vs 1 torpedoes are not even priority. 6" guns as main armament is possible however there would be 10 % ROF penalty and a lot of comprimises either on speed or protection. As in 1900 armor is still quite usefull, going to 5" guns could be good alternative. Minimum number of requested guns are 5 for broadside with availability of firing 2 guns forward and 2 guns aft. This means 10 guns total. Protection should be done that even some hits would not decrease speed of the ship to be able to catch enemy cruiser. For that purpose extended belt armor should be make priority over additional guns.
As you can see after all this request Comus class design had:
Speed: 22 knots Main armament: 10x5" guns (2 forward, 2 aft, 5 broadside) Protection: narrow armor scheme, 2.5" sloped main deck, 2" extedend part of sloped deck, 1" deck armor. No protection for gun mounts. Ammunition: 150 per gun for extended fight Fire control: 1 central rangefinder
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 10:14:59 GMT -6
Fleet protected cruiser
The request for fleet protected cruiser was defined as: - speed: at least 22 knots, preferable 23 knots, range medium
- main armament: 6" guns in maximum numbers - secondary armament: for anti-DD purposes - armor: reasonable protection against 6" guns - to have at least 4800/6000 tons
Arethusa class fleet protected cruiser - 3 ships (2 home area, 1 Mediterranean)
To fill all request ship need to be quite large - 6700 tons. speed: 23 knots, medium range main armament: 14x6" guns (2 forward, 2 aft, 7 broadside) with shield protection - 2" armor, 1" top secondary armament: 12x4" guns in casemates protected by 2" armor torpedo tubes: 4 submerged
protection: 2.5" sloped deck, 2" extended sloped deck, 1" deck through whole length, 3.5" conning tower
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Post by generalvikus on Feb 27, 2019 10:18:50 GMT -6
An interesting start - I'll be following along for sure. A few comments on the Comus design:
- Most importantly, I think that a 2,100 ship will always have more free weight available than a 2,400 ton ship, so I think that the 2,100 ton ship is going to be both less capable and more expensive than a 2,100 ton design. For this reason, I have never designed a cruiser of more than 2,100 and less than 3,100 tons; but I'm not sure if there are exceptions to this rule depending on the exact characteristics of the ship, such as machinery weight. Compared to a pair of 2,400 ton ships, a single 4,800 ton ship may be relatively efficient, because 2,400 ton ships are always going to be inefficient no matter how well they are designed.
Your design choice of unprotected turret mounts is an interesting one - I know it's a trend in your designs that not many other players tend to replicate. One thing I will say is that it potentially leaves the ship vulnerable to the small calibre guns of destroyers and (especially) the large and powerful early Russian cruisers, which may cause you a lot of trouble, though they're less likely to show up in colonial waters. I think, though I am not sure, that smaller protected cruisers tend to get pulled into 'destroyer actions' as destroyer leaders, whereas larger protected cruisers do not.
Finally, a question: does selecting 'narrow belt' reduce the total area covered by the combination of the B and BE armour?
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 10:37:57 GMT -6
An interesting start - I'll be following along for sure. A few comments on the Comus design: - Most importantly, I think that a 2,100 ship will always have more free weight available than a 2,400 ton ship, so I think that the 2,100 ton ship is going to be both less capable and more expensive than a 2,100 ton design. For this reason, I have never designed a cruiser of more than 2,100 and less than 3,100 tons; but I'm not sure if there are exceptions to this rule depending on the exact characteristics of the ship, such as machinery weight. Compared to a pair of 2,400 ton ships, a single 4,800 ton ship may be relatively efficient, because 2,400 ton ships are always going to be inefficient no matter how well they are designed. Your design choice of unprotected turret mounts is an interesting one - I know it's a trend in your designs that not many other players tend to replicate. One thing I will say is that it potentially leaves the ship vulnerable to the small calibre guns of destroyers and (especially) the large and powerful early Russian cruisers, which may cause you a lot of trouble, though they're less likely to show up in colonial waters. I think, though I am not sure, that smaller protected cruisers tend to get pulled into 'destroyer actions' as destroyer leaders, whereas larger protected cruisers do not. Finally, a question: does selecting 'narrow belt' reduce the total area covered by the combination of the B and BE armour? Relating to 2400 vs. 2100 cruiser, it is true that the curves going bad for cruiser design. However I need that cruiser for foreign stations so I need 2400 tons or I would need additional 6 cruisers and it would be much more costly.
4800 tons ship could be much more efficient however as noted above issue is that in case of some refit/repairs you need replaced the ship which is much larger. And the second thing is that it is just base ships for foreign stations in case of any need another ships could be send in that area. However 2 ships get better chance to thwart enemy raider than just one ship. Another point is that if there is more cruisers in area I have good experience that there is quite good chance 2 cruisers will be trying to catch of enemy raider. This 2 cruisers are better than one large cruiser as their firepower is 10x5" broadside. And I would like to see how these small cruisers are efficient in that role (I have never done so small colonial cruisers). Alternative you can build 4800 tons cruiser with speed of 23 knots, 6" guns with shield instead of 5" guns and some 70 tons remaining to use, however this cruiser would be more than 2 times costly than 2400 tons cruiser. This is interesting alternative but I would like to try 2 small cruisers instead 1 larger.
Yes, narrow belt decreases total area covered by belt armor, but by my experience for cruisers it could be better than no armor on extended part of the ship. You need speed and this helps it with some risk of hits on edge of the belt.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 10:57:15 GMT -6
Armored cruiser for the Mediterranean
This cruiser is meant to be used mainly in the Mediterranean and as heavy scout for the fleet.
Main request: - cheap - 21-22 knots (higher speed would not be cheap)
- 10" main guns - protection against 10" guns around 5000 yards - more extensive protection against 8" and 6" guns - secondary armament against CL and DD
Diadem class armored cruiser - 2 ships
speed: 21 knots, medium range main armament: 2x2x10" guns protected by 5" armor, 1.5" on top secondary armament: 12x5" guns in casemates protected by 2" armor torpedo tubes: 2 submerged protection: narrow armor scheme, 4.5" main belt, 4" extended belt, 1" deck trough whole lenght of the deck, 5" conning tower costs only 30M, so only 10 % more than Arethusa protected cruiser
note:
secondary armament - 5" guns seems best compromise to fight against early DD and CLs as 4" guns are too light against CL and 6" guns to heavy against DD only 1" deck armor - in my experience in early of the 20th century, splinter going through deck is very rare and 1" is enough against even 12" guns.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 11:28:29 GMT -6
Battleship - 2 ships (+2 under construction)
Main concerns are protection and firepower, speed is not needed as it is expected regular builds of new battleships. Another requests: - 12" main guns - protection against 12" guns of main areas
- ship protection against 10" guns for secondary areas - secondary guns protected against 6" guns
- 6" secondary guns
- tertiary guns for anti DD
Rodney class battleship
speed: 18 knots, medium range main armament: 2x2x12"(-1) guns protected by 9" armor, 2" on top secondary armament: 16x6" guns in casemates protected by 3" armor torpedo tubes: 4 submerged protection: 8" main belt, 7" extended belt, 1" deck trough whole lenght of the deck, 10" conning tower
Note: Ship should be armored quite well against foreign battleship however it is expected that she will get older quite quickly. But it does not matter as she is quite cheap and still will be much better than second class battleships.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 11:48:18 GMT -6
Small torpedo boat - 12 ships
Request for small and cheap ships.
Derwent class
speed: 26 knots armamemnt: 4x3" guns (broadside of 3) torpedo tubes: 1 central
The main reason is to save some money creating smaller design which could be used later as ASW ship.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 12:06:44 GMT -6
Destroyers - (12 ship under construction)
Rother class destroyer - 500 tons
speed: 27 knots armament: 5x3" guns (broadside 3x3") torpedo tubes: 2 central
This class is 1 knot faster and have additional 1 torpedo tubes for the increase of the costs by 30 %.
EDIT: during trials ship was found somewhat overweight
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 12:54:19 GMT -6
Battleships as January 1900
Analysis
Only USA has one battleship more, however Royal Navy has 2 battleships under construction (1 on hold temporary for 3-4 months due to destroyer construction program). It seems that French Marengo are superior but it could be expected that outside the citadel ship would be much worse armored than Rodney class. On opposite New York class is quite inferior and all 10" gun battleships (German and Japanese ones) would struggle do serious damge on Rodney class.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 13:32:57 GMT -6
Armored cruisers as January 1900
Two French cruisers are faster, the rest have same speed or even slower than Diadem class. Two French cruisers and 2 German cruisers are larger and have heavier secondary battery which could be weakness and I do not expect that their extended part of the ship is so well armored as Diadem class. However these cruisers could still have edge in 1 to 1 combat. For the rest cruisers Diadem is probably slighter better.
However conclusion is: Royal Navy needs more armored cruisers, probably 2 to counter 4 French ones. This 2 cruisers should be larger, probably 22-23 knots with 2x2x10" armament and better armored, at least 5" main belt. With current technology ship is expected to be around 12.000 tons at least.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 15:57:28 GMT -6
Protected cruisers
Except Olympia class all cruisers are able to make maximum 22 knots which gave Arethusa class cruiser advantage. Arethusa class cruiser is most powerfull protected cruiser as no cruiser has better combination of firepower and armor.
Comparison to foreign nations: Germany: Gerion class is more powerfull than Comus class, however 2 knots slower, Gazelle class is little better armored however 1 knot slower, Hela class is inferiour to Comus class France: Sfax class (1) is superior to Comus class with same speed, Tage class is inferior
Russia: Avrora class (1) is superior to Comus class however 2 knots slower, Diana class is inferior USA: Olympia class (1) is superior and even 1 knot faster, rest of ships are slower and has similar strength Japan: all ships are similar quality to Comus class
Italy: Marsala class (2) is superior to Comus class, Brindisi inferior
So overall quality of Comus and Arethusa class is high however all Comus class cruisers are need for foreign stations and 1 Arethusa class for the Mediterranean meaning we have only 2 cruisers for any offensive actions.
Recommendation: another 1-3 new protected cruisers
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2019 16:06:01 GMT -6
Overall situation
Royal Navy is the largest on start of the century however with the commitment on foreign stations their available cruiser force is much smaller. The situation for destroyers and battleships are much beter so next strategy would focus on armored and protected cruisers.
However actual budget is +200k with one of Rodney class battleship on hold for about 4 months till construction of destroyers will be finished.
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Post by dorn on Feb 28, 2019 6:32:21 GMT -6
Resources analysis of Royal Navy
Monthly budget: 7.738 National resources: 25.794 (5.794 from colonies) Colonies resources: 22.5 %
Monthly maintenance: 2.012 Monthly maintenace (ships on FS): 1.116 Colonial maintenance: 14.4 % (55.5 % from total maintenance)
It is quite clear that half of Royal Navy is needed in colonies and resources from colonies could not cover new construction. For combat operation we have only half of the fleet available. Thus is it quite nesseary any building program in future need to think how these ships after getting old could serve in colonies as there is no possibility to build so much ships only for colonies.
All ships on foreign stations cost us more than 182M, more than 2 yearly budgets.
If we think that we have about 60 % of budget for new construction and that colonial ships need to be replaced every 10 years than we need 1/3 of the construction budget just to replace these ships.
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