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Post by dorn on Feb 28, 2019 17:03:57 GMT -6
Situation in May 1905 needs decision
With 6 destroyers commisioned, increase funding to monthly budget of 8.664, Royal Navy has enough money to decide how they will be used.
Monthly balance: 623k Funds: 1.772k
Addional increase by 1.300k in 2 months as 6 destroyers are expected to be commisioned.
Expected monthly funds for construction: 3M
Actual status of all nations:
France laid down additional battleship of Magento class, Germany new type of armored cruiser with smaller tonnage and another protected cruisers were laid almost by all nations.
Actual tensions: Germany 6 France, USA 4
There are several main options: 1. wait with new designs as we have no new technology over actual ships
2. build additional armored cruisers of new class to surpass foreign designs
3. build additional protected cruisers, probably smaller than Arethusa - 4800 tons for future use on foreign stations
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Feb 28, 2019 18:23:08 GMT -6
4. Destroyers. You will need at least twice as many for coastal patrol and fleet escort, unless you plan to build quick and expendable MSs.
I would lay down as many DDs as you can afford, and when they launch see if you're ready to start your first BB or BC.
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Post by aeson on Feb 28, 2019 21:06:25 GMT -6
My feeling is that you don't really have enough available budget for laying down a new class of big CAs to make much sense right now. An ~11,000t 10" CA designed for 22 knots would probably cost you around three million in design fees and another 2M/turn to build; you don't have the funds available in the reserve to cover the design fees right now, and you won't have money in the budget to cover the construction costs of more than perhaps one such CA until your battleships complete some time in 1901. If you want to lay down a couple big cruisers that'll surpass the ships that some of the other powers have in service, I'd suggest waiting until the battleships are close to commissioning; it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to keep a million or two in the bank in case someone offers to sell you some technology, you'll need 1.2 million on hand whenever you decide to start expanding the docks, and you need to stockpile money for a couple of turns before you can afford the design fees for a new large CA anyways. All of that, to me, says don't start working on a new class of large CAs right now, except maybe if it's only ever going to be a one-off anyways. I'm also not entirely convinced that your Diadems are out-classed by the larger foreign CAs badly enough to necessitate a heavier CA right now.
As to building nothing and stockpiling funds while waiting for technological improvements, I'd say probably not; I think you'll be in 1901 before you'd have developed enough advances to make anything notably better than you can build right now, and unless you're planning for a particularly expensive construction program you probably don't need to stockpile funds for the next eight months.
My recommendation is either to build something relatively inexpensive (say, a dozen minesweepers, eight-ish destroyers, or a third Diadem/fourth Arethusa) while building up funds to cover design fees for a class of two or three large CAs (or five-ish 4800t CLs) to be laid down when the battleships complete in early 1901, or to start work on a pair of 4800t CLs now and aim for a new class of CAs or Bs in mid-1901 (possibly delaying at least one of the CLs slightly so you can start on a dock expansion that'll be ready in time for a mid-1901 CA/B program).
The savestate provided is only May 1900, and as nearly as I can tell there hasn't been a single technological advancement since the start of the game (which, granted, isn't particularly surprising, it being only about four turns in). It's very unlikely that dorn'll be ready to start work on a true dreadnought after only the eight or so months it'd take to build another ten destroyers or the year and a half or so it might take to build another twenty. I would also think that if dorn wants to build a lot more destroyers for early-game fleet service it might be better to hold out for 600-tonners and maybe a couple of weight-saving techs, which he'll probably have within a year or so.
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Post by yemo on Feb 28, 2019 23:30:28 GMT -6
Interesting, Royal Navy with game budgets and small fleet size.
Could we get a screenshot of your ships list (mainly the "first page"). Since maintenance costs seem to be a major issue with that setup and it gives a quick overview of the available fleet and finances without loading the save game.
You mention member designs. Will you issue formal design competitions or is it possible to propose a design outside of that (if it makes sense to do so)?
There is definately a need for more small ships to fulfil the coastal patrol role. With such a constrained budget, the Tortugapower 200 ton minesweeper comes to mind.
5. Cheap foreign station minesweepers to relieve the Comus class in non-contested sea zones and make some of them available for other roles (raider, fleet scout).
I just recently put a very slimmed down design in the pinned "Post your best ship designs here" thread, since I could not find a minesweeper design there (not even the famous Tortugapower 200 ton combat coastal patrol minesweeper).
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2019 0:12:36 GMT -6
4. Destroyers. You will need at least twice as many for coastal patrol and fleet escort, unless you plan to build quick and expendable MSs. I would lay down as many DDs as you can afford, and when they launch see if you're ready to start your first BB or BC. I did it by laying down 12 destroyers just before January 1900. Right now there is no submarines so in case of war I need only to cover minimal number of ship in coastal patrol. I have no minesweepers yet, so as you wrote, I expect to build around 12 of them as tension rise high enough.
Issue is that I will the early destroyers are quite ineffective and getting another batch of these ship (12) would cost me 17M which is quite a lot.
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2019 0:24:01 GMT -6
@eason
I have the money as I do not mean to build it exactly right now. Just what to design and build and if I need wait one month I will.
However I completely agree with you from beginning I certainly need ships as even Royal Navy is the largest in reality they need so much ships in foreign stations that actual fighting force is quite small but I have no technology advancement so it has no sence to build right now any ship and I am inclined to wait till the new advancements, ideally for new classes of armored cruisers of foreign nations as actual there are all very slow and I need build ship capable to fight them but as cheap as possible as my funds are limited a lot.
Relating to battleships I do not plan to build another one as I will have 4 battleship in less than year which is double the amount of any nations except USA and USA has 3 quite inferior battleship so there is no need for additional battleships. I would prefer not to build any battleship till the first 8 guns broadside dreadnought is available as any pre-dreadnought could be substantianal better only if much more money is spent but will be absolute as soon as new dreadnoughts will be available. Howevver 4 pre-dreadnoughts woud be still quite usefull as 1 could be used in the Mediterranean realeasing more expensive armored cruisers and could help to invade any possesion in the world.
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2019 0:50:20 GMT -6
Interesting, Royal Navy with game budgets and small fleet size. Could we get a screenshot of your ships list (mainly the "first page"). Since maintenance costs seem to be a major issue with that setup and it gives a quick overview of the available fleet and finances without loading the save game. You mention member designs. Will you issue formal design competitions or is it possible to propose a design outside of that (if it makes sense to do so)? There is definately a need for more small ships to fulfil the coastal patrol role. With such a constrained budget, the Tortugapower 200 ton minesweeper comes to mind. 5. Cheap foreign station minesweepers to relieve the Comus class in non-contested sea zones and make some of them available for other roles (raider, fleet scout). I just recently put a very slimmed down design in the pinned "Post your best ship designs here" thread, since I could not find a minesweeper design there (not even the famous Tortugapower 200 ton combat coastal patrol minesweeper). Yes, it is very interested with game budget and small fleet size as in small fleet size your budget shrink more than foreign station requirements vs. large fleet sizes and game budget even more limits your fund available. It seems to me that it is more challanging than playing historical budget with very large fleets of any small major powers as Italy, Japan, Russia or A-H. I expect that rising of funds through time would be similar making this even thougher through the time.
Maintenance costs are not the issue as only 24 % of budget is used for maintenance and it is quite less than usual 35-40 % in late game. There are several things you need to be aware and that starting fleet is quite small relating to your budget and through time your fleet is getting quite larger. The other thing is that your legacy fleet is practically 20th century fleet, you have no absolute old older ships as it was in real life. So in the first decade you do not replace ships as navy did but you just enlarge your fleet and usually only after 1910 you start replacing your absolute ships.
I would propose some design competion if I can see there is interest however right now it does not seems to me there is enough members interested. To have some sence I would like to have at least 4-5 designs. I take it you are interested in.
I intend to build 200 tons minesweepers to fullfill coastal patrol requirement but it seems to me there is still time to build them.
Relating building minesweepers for foreign stations it seems as good idea, 1600 tons armed with 5" guns and speed of 18 knots would costs 4.4 M. So for one foreign station it would costs 13.2 M vs. 17.7 M for Comus class but at price that they would be almost useless in fighting conditions as without armor and so slow they would not catch enemy raider and could not face any serioius protected cruiser. It could be quite interesting alternative for legacy fleet and has sence to build at least some of them but right now it seems to me as waste of money as I have already ships for foreign stations and Comus class is not fast enough for raider duty if I am not able to blockade enemy or strong enough to fight fleet protected cruiser. But I am thinking to have 2 of 1200 tons as reserve for Comus class but they would be needed in war and tension is still quite low to build them right now. Righ now I have one Comus class more than I needed as reserve.
In case of gunboats for foreign stations I do not want to build something as large one with 1 gun as it seems me to be gamey as the real value of the ship is nill.
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Post by yemo on Mar 1, 2019 8:43:33 GMT -6
1600 tons, 19knots, 2x5inch guns and colonial service shows 2631k building costs for me (791 weight remaining for marines and stuff)? Do you put armor on them for the 4400k price tag?
Historically it could be derived from something like the Cadmus-class sloops (1100tons, 13knots, 6x4inch guns) from 1900, or the Acacia-class sloops (1200 tons, 17knots, 2x3inch guns) from 1915.
I understand it feeling gamey, but the manual itself recommends such a ship (though it makes a case for a 5inch armament to deter raiders). Thus I was surprised that the AI does not use them, but I m not sure how foreign station requirements work for the AI.
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2019 10:04:43 GMT -6
1600 tons, 19knots, 2x5inch guns and colonial service shows 2631k building costs for me (791 weight remaining for marines and stuff)? Do you put armor on them for the 4400k price tag? Historically it could be derived from something like the Cadmus-class sloops (1100tons, 13knots, 6x4inch guns) from 1900, or the Acacia-class sloops (1200 tons, 17knots, 2x3inch guns) from 1915. About being gamey, the manual itself recommends such a ship (though it makes a case for a 5inch armament to deter raiders). Thus I was surprised that the AI does not use them, but I m not sure how foreign station requirements work for the AI. You are right but these ships were not succesfull in history.
4400k was for ship with some combat value with more 5" guns and higher speed. These ship would be just stationed in foreign stations and even AMC would be more powerfull. As I have now cruisers it seems to me waste of money right now.
But I am thinking you can have right that instead building protected cruisers I can build 6 x 1200 tons with knowledge they cannot face any ship in areas as Indian Ocean and West Africa and the Caribbean and free 3 of Comus class cruisers. The costs would be around 14M and maintenance costs change by +6*11k*1,2-3*45k*0,2= +52.2k. At these station there would be 1 Comus class cruiser and 2 gunboats. For that price I can use 3 Comus class cruisers to reinforce any foreign station if needed as I do not feel they are good enough to be deployed in main areas of clashes. I will think about these gunboats and how much could be optimal.
Thanks for the idea as I get another idea using AMC if needed. The same ship you propose as MS (gunboat) could be build as AMC for 1747k in 4 months (or 2400 tons for 2689k) and free several cruisers in case of losses. This should could even be tweaked to have more guns and less speed to defend against raiders.
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Post by yemo on Mar 1, 2019 10:43:57 GMT -6
You are right but these ships were not succesfull in history.
4400k was for ship with some combat value with more 5" guns and higher speed. These ship would be just stationed in foreign stations and even AMC would be more powerfull. As I have now cruisers it seems to me waste of money right now.
But I am thinking you can have right that instead building protected cruisers I can build 6 x 1200 tons with knowledge they cannot face any ship in areas as Indian Ocean and West Africa and the Caribbean and free 3 of Comus class cruisers. The costs would be around 14M and maintenance costs change by +6*11k*1,2-3*45k*0,2= +52.2k. At these station there would be 1 Comus class cruiser and 2 gunboats. For that price I can use 3 Comus class cruisers to reinforce any foreign station if needed as I do not feel they are good enough to be deployed in main areas of clashes. I will think about these gunboats and how much could be optimal.
Thanks for the idea as I get another idea using AMC if needed. The same ship you propose as MS (gunboat) could be build as AMC for 1747k in 4 months (or 2400 tons for 2689k) and free several cruisers in case of losses. This should could even be tweaked to have more guns and less speed to defend against raiders.
I like the 1CL, 2gunboats split. Will try that in my next game. It seems that minesweepers tend to be overlooked for combat make ups by the game, thus their investment is relatively long lasting.
Interesting point about the AMCs. I had almost purged AMCs from my considerations, since the shock of them disbanding after a ~6 month inconclusive war when I first tried them. But the 4 month build time is a major advantage. Perhaps I have to reevaluate my approach between in-game min-maxing and roleplay.
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Post by generalvikus on Mar 2, 2019 0:22:58 GMT -6
1600 tons, 19knots, 2x5inch guns and colonial service shows 2631k building costs for me (791 weight remaining for marines and stuff)? Do you put armor on them for the 4400k price tag? Historically it could be derived from something like the Cadmus-class sloops (1100tons, 13knots, 6x4inch guns) from 1900, or the Acacia-class sloops (1200 tons, 17knots, 2x3inch guns) from 1915. About being gamey, the manual itself recommends such a ship (though it makes a case for a 5inch armament to deter raiders). Thus I was surprised that the AI does not use them, but I m not sure how foreign station requirements work for the AI. You are right but these ships were not succesfull in history.
4400k was for ship with some combat value with more 5" guns and higher speed. These ship would be just stationed in foreign stations and even AMC would be more powerfull. As I have now cruisers it seems to me waste of money right now.
But I am thinking you can have right that instead building protected cruisers I can build 6 x 1200 tons with knowledge they cannot face any ship in areas as Indian Ocean and West Africa and the Caribbean and free 3 of Comus class cruisers. The costs would be around 14M and maintenance costs change by +6*11k*1,2-3*45k*0,2= +52.2k. At these station there would be 1 Comus class cruiser and 2 gunboats. For that price I can use 3 Comus class cruisers to reinforce any foreign station if needed as I do not feel they are good enough to be deployed in main areas of clashes. I will think about these gunboats and how much could be optimal.
Thanks for the idea as I get another idea using AMC if needed. The same ship you propose as MS (gunboat) could be build as AMC for 1747k in 4 months (or 2400 tons for 2689k) and free several cruisers in case of losses. This should could even be tweaked to have more guns and less speed to defend against raiders.
From the top of my head, I think the 4400k price tag of the 1200 ton gunboat suggested here would be about 60% of the cost of a 2,100 ton protected cruiser of about the same speed (about 19 knots) but with vastly better combat capabilities (a relatively heavy broadside of 5 inch guns with up to 8 3 inch secondaries) and armour of up to 3 inches on the belt and 2 on the turrets. I've been in love with these small, compact 'brawlers' ever since I ended up in a vastly unequal scenario between one of these little ships with a few destroyers on my side against two of the heavy Russian protected cruisers, each more than twice the size. Since the early destroyers stood no chance against the Russian 3 inch meat grinders, I used the protected cruiser to cover their retreat. When it became clear that it could not run any longer, I turned it straight towards the enemy and watched with my mouth agape as it promptly disabled both enemy vessels. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to work miracles like that makes these vessels not only much more cost-effective than any gunboat or AMC, but also more cost effective than almost any alternative protected cruiser. The price, of course, is that it is impossible to make these ships fast enough to chase down enemy 21 and 22 knot raiders at this stage of the game without totally compromising their combat capabilities; good armour is especially important, in my opinion, because they cannot afford to take very much damage. However, since a gunboat is even less capable of achieving the desired speed, I still think that one such vessel would be vastly more worth you while than two gunboats on a colonial station. (Having said all that, if the 2,400 ton displacement of the Comus is a necessary requirement, then it may not be possible to make it efficient even if it is very slow. Slow ships are cheap by their nature, but 2,400 ships are not by their nature combat effective.)
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Post by generalvikus on Mar 2, 2019 1:48:49 GMT -6
Having investigated the problem, I'm convinced that more cruisers along the lines of the Comus are the best option. At 2,100 tons, it would be possible to build a very cheap 'gunboat' cruiser, which I think would be worth much more than its weight in gunboats. See the following: As you can see, this ship is well-optimised for engaging in non-raider intercept engagements. At 80% of the cost of the Comus, it has the same broadside but with shielded turrets. Since it cannot chase down enemy cruisers, only one gun is mounted forward; however, the 3,168 HP engines can very cheaply be made reliable, and this feature along with the twin rear facing guns and plentiful ammunition give it the option to flee and outlast the enemy in a prolonged stern chase where necessary. However, this ship does not meet the foreign station tonnage requirement and therefore must be discounted. At 2,400 tons, it would still be possible to build a similar 'gunboat cruiser' that would be much more combat capable than the Comus, and cheaper, and still worth more than its weight in gunboats: However, such a ship is less than 10% cheaper than the Comus, and so its low cost and excellent combat capability do not justify the fact that it would slow the Comus down when they were paired together in actions.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 4:44:25 GMT -6
I have decided not to laid down any ship yet and instead created budget reserves. The main reasons have been small tension and any ship would not be more efficient than actual ships have been.
May 1900 - November 1900
6/1900 – Spy from Germany was discovered and it was given max. publicity 8/1900 – Research breakdown – Coincidence rangefinders and Hydraulic recoil 8/1900 – A lot of thoughts was given in admiralty to design ships with heavy secondary battery (research breakdown – Heavy secondary battery) Note: all these advances did not save weight on our designs 8/1900 – Private shipbuilding is expanding dock size to 17000 tons 9/1900 – Research breakdown – Krupp armor 9/1900 – Internal upheaval in Albania, Prime Minister decide to intervene and we manage to restore order and place Albania under our administration. Note: it increased our foreign station requirement in the Mediterranean to 25000 tons 9/1900 – as our 2 battleships are near the completion, we decided to dispatch battleship Benbow and protected cruiser Calypso (Comus class) to the Mediterranean and recall both armored cruisers to home waters. 11/1900 – Research breakdown – Improved surface condenser (machinery) and Improved hydrostatic valve (torpedo) 11/1900 – Germany laid down another Thetis class protected cruiser
Note: I only report about foreign ships that are cruisers and capital ships.
November 1900 - actual status
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 4:53:03 GMT -6
November 11/1900
As tension with Germany (8) and France (7) is rising Royal Navy needs to adapt to this situation as war could start anytime in future, expecting from half to one year.
Ships of foreign powers:
Note: it has not change much, mainly destroyers.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 4:56:44 GMT -6
Battleships
France has one 15.500 tons battleship of Magenta class under construction, no other change from January 1900.
Actual status of all battleships
As Royal Navy would have in half of 1901 superior number of battleships there is no need to build another ones.
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