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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 5:06:53 GMT -6
Armored cruisers
Germany and Italy laid down new cruisers and they are expected to be commisioned in 1902.
As war with Germany or/and France is expected Royal Navy lack numbers in armored cruisers. Germany has 2 AC and from 1902 is expected to have 3 available from which Vineta class is considered slightly better than our Diadem class. France has 4 AC from which 1 ship of Amiral Cecille is considered inferior, 1 ship of Gueydon is considered same quality as Diadems and 2 ships of Dupetit-Thoaurs class are considered slightly superior.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 5:16:55 GMT -6
Protected cruisers
Germany laid down fleet protected cruiser Thetis class. France laid down smaller protected cruiser Tage class.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2019 6:07:05 GMT -6
Royal Navy analysis as November 1900
As situation with Germany and France is worsening we need to be prepared against these navies.
Actual funds: 15M Monthly budget: 2.4 M Expected monthly budget about 4/1901: 5.6M
Approved monthly budget for immediate construction: 5M
Light ships (destroyers, minesweepers) Royal Navy has 24 destroyers from which 12 are first class destroyers. However Royal Navy should have about 12 minesweepers for minesweeping and patrol.
Protected cruisers German has available all 7 protected cruisers for fleet duty and raider duty with additional cruiser available in 1902.
France have all 3 protected cruisers in colonies so France has no protected cruiser available for fleet or raider duty. Another protected cruiser is expected to be ready in 1902.
We have 3 protected cruisers of Arethusa class ready for fleet and anti-raider duty. As German have 7(+1) cruiser available optimum would be to increase our available protected cruisers by 4-5. These cruisers are not nessesary to be fleet cruisers as large as Arethusa class.
Armored cruisers Royal Navy has 2 armored cruisers for fleet duty. Germany has 2 armored cruisers for fleet duty and another one available in 1902. France has 2 armored cruisers in the Mediterranean and 2 armored cruisers with 2 protected cruisers in Southeast Asia.
We have enough armored cruisers against Germany however Against France we lacking 2 armored cruisers so optimum would be to increae our available armored cruisers by 2.
There is no contingency in case we would be war against coalition of France and Germany as Royal Navy has not and could not have enough ships to counter that threat.
Overview We have 5M budget for construction and we would like to build ideally 2 armored cruisers and 12 minsweepers, free 4-5 protected cruisers.
Pre-eliminary sketches
12x200 tons minesweepers Costs: 750k Monthly costs: 150k*12 = 1.8M for 5 months
4800 tons protected cruiser - scaled down Arethusa class without 3" guns, 5" guns instead 6" guns and removal of one pair of these guns, remove extended sloped deck, removal of one pair of torpedo tubes
Costs: 18.6M Monthly costs 1M per 18 months 4 cruisers: 4M per 18 months
1600 tons gunboat for colonial duties - 17 knots, 2" belt armor, 2" BE, 1" deck armor, protected cruiser armored scheme, 9x5" guns with 1.5" armored shield
Costs: 5.6M Monthly costs: 0.5M per 11 months 6 gunboats to release 4 Comus class cruisers from foreign station duty - 3M per 11 months
8700 tons armored cruiser - 21 knots, 2x2x8", 12x5" guns, narrow armor scheme, flat top deck on top, 6" belt, 5" BE, 1" deck and DE, 7" CT, 7" turret armor, 1.5" top, 2" casemetes Costs: 31.1M Monthly costs: 1.6M per month for 20 months 2 armored cruisers: 3.2 per month for 20 months
So it is completely impossible to build everything Royal Navy would like to have even if the ship design are optimized to be costs effective. So question is what should be priority? 1. minesweepers - Royal Navy can decrease amount to 6 and use destroyers - 0.9 M per 5 months 2. protected cruisers - Royal Navy can overstreched Arethusa class cruisers and use only 2 new protected cruisers - 2M per 18 months 3. armored cruiser - Royal Navy can dispatch battleship to Southeast Asia and build only 1 armored cruiser, however faster and more powerfu - up to 2.1M per month
However issue is that it would take almost 2 years to have new cruisers so there is option to build 3 gunboats instead protected cruisers to release 2 Comus class cruisers at end of 1901 and build one powerfull armored cruiser that can be quite flexible.
Another alternative is to build 4 new protected cruisers and do not build armored cruiser at all as protected cruisers could be used in future for foreign stations however in case armored cruiser will miss the war this should could be almost useless. And dispatch battleship in area where additional armored cruiser is needed.
We should not forget training for Royal Navy and gunnery training would costs 626k per month. It could be the difference especially for Diadem class armored cruisers and Comus protected cruisers in case they would engage better ship.
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Post by yemo on Mar 2, 2019 17:00:07 GMT -6
Imho the weakest point at the moment is the enemy AC advantage.
At least from a role-play point of view, the potential enemies have more powerful ships of equal speed (german Vineta, french Dupetit-Thouars compared to british Diadem). If we would not presume that the AI is less efficient in using them and/or built them with other weeknesses (low ammo count, week extended armour and so on), that would be a major concern for the british.
An even bigger point could be made for the french 22knot Gueydon. She is faster than the british 21knot Diadem, stronger than the british 23knot Arethusa and much stronger than the british 22knot Comus class. Which sounds like a virtually untouchable enemy cruiser (at least from a role play perspective, where she would run from a Diadem instead of fighting it).
I propose a single 23knot, max tonnage, heavily armed and armored cruiser to catch and dominate everything else afloat, and even be able to challenge legacy enemy Bs. A symbol of british might for potential enemies and the public alike.
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Post by dorn on Mar 3, 2019 8:34:40 GMT -6
Imho the weakest point at the moment is the enemy AC advantage. At least from a role-play point of view, the potential enemies have more powerful ships of equal speed (german Vineta, french Dupetit-Thouars compared to british Diadem). If we would not presume that the AI is less efficient in using them and/or built them with other weeknesses (low ammo count, week extended armour and so on), that would be a major concern for the british. An even bigger point could be made for the french 22knot Gueydon. She is faster than the british 21knot Diadem, stronger than the british 23knot Arethusa and much stronger than the british 22knot Comus class. Which sounds like a virtually untouchable enemy cruiser (at least from a role play perspective, where she would run from a Diadem instead of fighting it). I propose a single 23knot, max tonnage, heavily armed and armored cruiser to catch and dominate everything else afloat, and even be able to challenge legacy enemy Bs. A symbol of british might for potential enemies and the public alike. I am not so worried that Vineta nad Dupetit-Thouars are so stronger as all of them have 2x2x10" main armament. The both foreign designs have marginally better main belt protection but I expect that their extended part would be much more vulnerable and that their 7" guns would have more issue to penetrate Diadem than 5" guns of Diadem penetrate them. Difference of speed by 1 knot is not significant either especially as Diadem has better protection against hull damage so it is likely that Diadem would be able to withstand more hits and remain in high speed. Gudeon class I consider worst than Diadem class as their 2x9" guns would be much less effective than 2x2x10", especially with weak armor of Gudeon class.
British Arethusa class has no chance against armored cruisers except Amiral Cecille. So it means that there is no need to have more than 3 armored cruisers.
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Post by dorn on Mar 3, 2019 8:40:40 GMT -6
I will decide till the 5th of March on final request of Royal Navy.
I would be happy if members are willing to participate on design contest. Please show your interest in this thread till 5th of March annoucing your shipyard and how much time you need for designs.
The contest will go on if at least 3 members will be participating till 5th of March however applications could be done any time till closing time of the contest.
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Post by yemo on Mar 3, 2019 15:47:44 GMT -6
Beardmore Shipbuilding, having recently purchased the famous Robert Napier and Sons, we are proud to continue and expand their tradition of innovation and reliability with UKs largest and most advanced shipyard currently under contruction.
Usually within 24hours, although there is some chance that real life throws a curve ball some time in the second half of march and I can not participate in a design challenge at all.
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Post by aeson on Mar 3, 2019 17:45:49 GMT -6
My recommendation is to lay down a large CA and two midsize CLs now, with a third midsize CL and the first ~6 of the planned 12 ASW/CP minesweepers to be laid down once the two battleships are completed. Lay down the remaining ASW/CP minesweepers as funding becomes available, or if necessary by suspending work on whichever vessel you judge to be least immediately useful, should war become imminent.
As to the potential design competition, I'd be willing to participate. While I suspect that I could turn a proposal out within a day of the competition, I would recommend allowing about a week, or at least part of a weekend, for design competitions.
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Post by dorn on Mar 5, 2019 6:28:30 GMT -6
Design competition - November 1900
aeson , yemo , thanks for the interest. You are only 2 interested in. I wil launch competition, we can see if some other member is interested. If there is no more interest I will probably do it by 2 rounds, meaning after choosen design asking about some changes if I would like to. If there is more participants I will choose one of the designs.
Request is for at least 1 armored cruiser and 2 protected cruisers. If there are available cheap design I will build more protected cruisers. I will favor costs or numbers of ships that can be build over designs that outlasses foreign design too much. The reason is that British efficient shipbuilding industry is able to counter any design of foreign nation which is laid down.
COMPETITION 1900/1/AC - 1 armored cruiser - armored cruiser to counter German Vineta and French Dupetit-Thouars classes minimal requirements: - speed of 22 knots - broadside - main and secondary battery should have broadside at least 80 % of foreign designs broadside of main and secondary battery
- anti DD armament (caliber 6" guns and higher are not considered for these purposes) - belt armor and main turret armor at least 4.5"
COMPETITION 1900/2/CL - 2 general purpose protected cruisers - general purpose protected cruiser for any role of fleet scout, patroling cruiser, raider interceptor - these cruisers are not expected to be as powerfull as Arethusa class
- Royal Navy is expecting of these ship as getting old to be refitted for colonial duty and replace Comus class
- design is preffered to counter German and French designs minimal requirements: - broadside of 7x5" guns or equivalent (see note at the end) - speed of 22 knots - at least 2" of sloped deck armor - guns protected by shield - important is efficiency so ratio of quality vs. costs and potential future usefullness of refitting for foreign stations
Budget limitation:
- preffered 4.5 M per month for all ships (to speed construction of ships if necessary)
- maximum 5.2M per month for all ships
GENERAL CONDITIONS: - any shipyard can provide up to 2 designs in each category - any shipyard will provide design picture and design file (*.40d) - any shipyard are recommended to provide explanation of design futures
Deadline for proposals - the 12th of March
note for calculation of broadside (b) b = n * c ^ 3 n ... number of guns c ... guns caliber
ANY NEW MEMBERS are welcome to attend the competition
EDIT: adding note that difference between preffered and maximum budget is gunnery training I would like to start.
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Post by yemo on Mar 5, 2019 9:34:06 GMT -6
dorn: Is the CL minimum requirement of "at least 2 inches of sloped deck armour" meant as at least 2inches on the deck portion of the armour (Deck = 2)? I just do not know how the "sloped deck protection scheme" integrates the Belt and Deck armour values. With RTW 2 scheduled to release end of this month, most people seem to wait for that to come back to RTW. Will have my designs ready later today.
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Post by dorn on Mar 5, 2019 9:40:57 GMT -6
dorn : Is the CL minimum requirement of "at least 2 inches of sloped deck armour" meant as at least 2inches on the deck portion of the armour (Deck = 2)? I just do not know how the "sloped deck protection scheme" integrates the Belt and Deck armour values. With RTW 2 scheduled to release end of this month, most people seem to wait for that to come back to RTW. Will have my designs ready later today. It is belt armor for game purposes. Protected cruiser scheme is practically only deck armor with central part horizontal (deck armor in game) and going sloped to edge of the hull (belt armor for game purposes).
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Post by aeson on Mar 5, 2019 16:48:09 GMT -6
Balsa Construction is pleased to submit for the Admiralty's consideration two proposals to meet the 1900/1/AC requirement and two proposals to meet the 1900/2/CL requirement. 1900/1/AC.1: Powerful Powerful is a 23-knot 14,500-ton armored cruiser armed with four 10" guns in fore-and-aft twin turrets and a potent secondary battery of six turreted 8" guns, three to each broadside; a tertiary battery of sixteen casemated 4" guns, eight on each side of the ship, is included for defense against torpedo boats and torpedo boat destroyers. By our calculations, this gives Powerful about 86% of the weight of broadside of the 2x2x10" + 14x1x7" + 8x3" armaments typical of large foreign first class cruisers, or about 93% of the weight of broadside if the guns of the tertiary battery are included. Despite its lower weight of broadside, we at Balsa Construction believe that the superior range and penetrating power of Powerful's 8" secondary battery will give it an advantage in effective firepower over the 7" secondary batteries of its foreign counterparts while its superior armor protection renders it nearly immune to their weapons.
1900/1/AC.2: Europa Europa fits Powerful's armament to an 11,000-ton displacement, thereby achieving a 20% reduction in projected construction costs and shortening expected time from keel-laying to commissioning by one month, albeit at the cost of a knot of design speed and some armor protection.
1900/2/CL.1: Amphion Amphion fits HMS Arethusa's speed and main battery broadside of seven 6" guns onto 4,800 tons at the cost of the secondary battery, some armor protection, and a sternchaser. Despite these sacrifices, we at Balsa Construction believe that Amphion will prove decisively superior to any foreign second class cruiser currently in service, and should be well-suited to service on colonial stations after a quick refit.
1900/2/CL.2: Argonaut A more radical design than Amphion, Argonaut combines a 1" sloping armored deck with a partial 2.5" armor belt, which, we believe, will make it the best-protected second class cruiser in the world. Its armament consists of a main battery of four 7" guns in fore-and-aft twin turrets and a secondary battery of eight casemated 4" guns, four to a side, which we feel should give it the ability to dominate other second class cruisers while remaining reasonably capable of screening heavier ships against attacks by torpedo boats or torpedo boat destroyers, and its design speed of 23 knots allows it the ability to operate with the Arethusa-class cruisers currently in service with the Royal Navy and maneuver effectively relative to the battle line.
Attachments:Proposals.zip (125.89 KB)
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Post by yemo on Mar 5, 2019 19:04:18 GMT -6
Beardmore Shipbuilding is delighted to present our designs for the 1900/1/AC and 1900/2/CL competition:
1900/1/AC.yemo1: Andromeda - replaced by 1900/1/AC.yemo5: Antigone (design post on next page)
We stretched the hull of the B Rodney class, put as much engine power as possible into it, a bit more deck armour onto it and swapped out the guns for the 10inch ones from the Diadem class.
The result is the fastest cruiser design to date, with improved battleship armour protection and fast firing 10 inch guns. 24x4 inch tertiaries will melt any destroyer desperate enough to approach, because nothing else is able to threaten this queen of the oceans.
A nightmare for every enemy cruiser captain, a major haedache for an enemy admiral during fleet engagements and a reliable asset for our fleet.
1900/1/AC.yemo2: Athena
Weaker armour (but much better than any foreign design), a bit slower (but still matching the fastest foreign cruiser) and 10 million cheaper, this design is much less extreme than the Andromeda. Were it not for the two battleship turrets mounted to each end. 2x2x12 inch guns are nothing short of frightening, when combined with cruiser speeds. They might fire less often, but when they hit, the enemy will notice. 24x5 inch secondaries provide a nice hailstorm while the 12 inchers reload, at least for anyone watching from a distance.
1900/2/CL.yemo3: Manticore
Smaller and cheaper, but better armoured than the Arethusa class, the 2x1x8 inch guns can penetrate every other light cruiser at combat ranges. With 10x5 inch guns for broadside support, this cruiser will provide affordable security throughout the seven seas. Please note that we can mount both 8inch gun turrets to the front, if requested.
1900/2/CL.yemo4: Monoceros - replaced by 1900/2/CL.yemo6: Maia (design post on next page)
We took the concept of the Manticore design one step further by designing the smallest possible 23knot ship around an 8 inch gun. This 8inch gun has a lower rate of fire and a bit less accuracy, but if you are an enemy cruiser captain, are you willing to bet your ship on the lower hit probability? Because when it does hit, it will penetrate and do significant damage. And then you are the captain who gambled away your expensive cruiser for the chance to sink such a small vessel. And your name will be spoken throughout the naval academy every year, when young officers are warned not to take too much risk for such little reward.
Of course an enemy protected cruiser turning away is exactly what a Monoceros captain wants to see, nothing better than a stern chase when you have a big gun on your bow and the enemy has so little to shoot back with. While the belt armour is among the best in its class, we had to ditch the deck armour to save weight. 4x6inch secondaries and 4x4inch tertiaries provide broadside support. A design for economical admirals (8 million, produced in 16 months at 500k/month) and aggressive captains.
The design files (edit: only Athena and Manticore are relevant, other designs retracted):
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Post by dorn on Mar 6, 2019 3:13:43 GMT -6
Thanks aeson and yemo for your design. I will wait for the first contest till deadline if anybody else want to participate.
yemo : I was quite suprised that 2x2x12" CA is not illegal, I completely forget that till belt armor is 6" and speed up to 22 knots, the 12" guns are available. aeson : Are you aware that Argonaut is CA, not CL as it has sloped deck insted protected cruiser armor scheme? In real life it is not the difference for using that ship but for RTW it is.
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Post by yemo on Mar 6, 2019 9:17:45 GMT -6
Thanks aeson and yemo for your design. I will wait for the first contest till deadline if anybody else want to participate.
yemo : I was quite suprised that 2x2x12" CA is not illegal, I completely forget that till belt armor is 6" and speed up to 22 knots, the 12" guns are available. aeson : Are you aware that Argonaut is CA, not CL as it has sloped deck insted protected cruiser armor scheme? In real life it is not the difference for using that ship but for RTW it is. I do not know when and how fast you want to play, but maybe until the end of the weekend the next design design competition would start. The thing is, with rtw2 launching end of the month, how far will this AAR go, when we take a long time for each competition and then the switch to rtw happens eg in early april?
Yeah, it was not my first AC intuition (I wanted to go 23 knots), but it was just too hard to pass up such an opportunity. To have guns which could easily penetrate every other cruiser on the afloat. Then I tried to replicate that for the CLs as well, with the 8 inch guns. Was surprised that I could meet the broadside requirements for the very cheap Monoceros class. Though the single 8 inch on such a small vessel is not that reliable, it looks to be very cost efficient.
Except for that wild card Monoceros class, my designs seem to be on the expensive side. One Andromeda and two Manticores have higher monthly building costs than the allowed maximum of 5.2M. I ll have to work on my efficiency. Very intrigued by the Europa class, even when uparmoring the secondaries to 6 inches against flash fires, they are 10 million cheaper than the 55/56 million designs, while still having the impressive 6x8inch secondaries.
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