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Post by dorn on Mar 6, 2019 9:29:06 GMT -6
Thanks aeson and yemo for your design. I will wait for the first contest till deadline if anybody else want to participate.
yemo : I was quite suprised that 2x2x12" CA is not illegal, I completely forget that till belt armor is 6" and speed up to 22 knots, the 12" guns are available. aeson : Are you aware that Argonaut is CA, not CL as it has sloped deck insted protected cruiser armor scheme? In real life it is not the difference for using that ship but for RTW it is. I do not know when and how fast you want to play, but maybe until the end of the weekend the next design design competition would start. The thing is, with rtw2 launching end of the month, how far will this AAR go, when we take a long time for each competition and then the switch to rtw happens eg in early april?
Yeah, it was not my first AC intuition (I wanted to go 23 knots), but it was just too hard to pass up such an opportunity. To have guns which could easily penetrate every other cruiser on the afloat. Then I tried to replicate that for the CLs as well, with the 8 inch guns. Was surprised that I could meet the broadside requirements for the very cheap Monoceros class. Though the single 8 inch on such a small vessel is not that reliable, it looks to be very cost efficient.
Except for that wild card Monoceros class, my designs seem to be on the expensive side. One Andromeda and two Manticores have higher monthly building costs than the allowed maximum of 5.2M. I ll have to work on my efficiency. Very intrigued by the Europa class, even when uparmoring the secondaries to 6 inches against flash fires, they are 10 million cheaper than the 55/56 million designs, while still having the impressive 6x8inch secondaries.
I would like to get time if somebody elso want to participate. After than I will speed up depending of number of members participating. With small fleet size it can go quite quickly. I am not sure if it is done till end of March however you can end your involvment any time.
You can change proposed design any time till end of competition. Just clearly mention which designs are the last ones.
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Post by yemo on Mar 6, 2019 9:54:50 GMT -6
I do not know when and how fast you want to play, but maybe until the end of the weekend the next design design competition would start. The thing is, with rtw2 launching end of the month, how far will this AAR go, when we take a long time for each competition and then the switch to rtw happens eg in early april?
Yeah, it was not my first AC intuition (I wanted to go 23 knots), but it was just too hard to pass up such an opportunity. To have guns which could easily penetrate every other cruiser on the afloat. Then I tried to replicate that for the CLs as well, with the 8 inch guns. Was surprised that I could meet the broadside requirements for the very cheap Monoceros class. Though the single 8 inch on such a small vessel is not that reliable, it looks to be very cost efficient.
Except for that wild card Monoceros class, my designs seem to be on the expensive side. One Andromeda and two Manticores have higher monthly building costs than the allowed maximum of 5.2M. I ll have to work on my efficiency. Very intrigued by the Europa class, even when uparmoring the secondaries to 6 inches against flash fires, they are 10 million cheaper than the 55/56 million designs, while still having the impressive 6x8inch secondaries.
I would like to get time if somebody elso want to participate. After than I will speed up depending of number of members participating. With small fleet size it can go quite quickly. I am not sure if it is done till end of March however you can end your involvment any time.
You can change proposed design any time till end of competition. Just clearly mention which designs are the last ones.
Since this is first competition and there is still lots of time until deadline, could you give some pointers? Eg if one of the designs is out of the question because it is much too expensive or because it is much too light (Monoceros) to be considered at all?
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Post by dorn on Mar 6, 2019 10:41:55 GMT -6
I would like to get time if somebody elso want to participate. After than I will speed up depending of number of members participating. With small fleet size it can go quite quickly. I am not sure if it is done till end of March however you can end your involvment any time.
You can change proposed design any time till end of competition. Just clearly mention which designs are the last ones.
Since this is first competition and there is still lots of time until deadline, could you give some pointers? Eg if one of the designs is out of the question because it is much too expensive or because it is much too light (Monoceros) to be considered at all? I haven thought about CAs because it will be more about budget vs. future proof. I will not write what is wrong and what is good in detail, I will give you some general clues.
As related to protected cruisers I need general purpose cruiser to server different role, it does not need to be best in either role (the Arethusas are - there are even more expensive than they should be) but this cruiser should be able to fight any actual protected cruiser with some chance. The second important thing is about request that ship will be used for colonies as getting older and replaced and as you can see the tonnage requirements are 6000 tons for colonies except the Mediterranean. This ship needs to be better for that purpose than Comus class to live longer than Comus class - balance of quality and maintanence costs are important.
I will comment each design after competion ends in more detail. As I mentioned if we are in low numbers I can do the second round to ask some changes (in real life there were a lot of design changes from the first variant to final variant).
Look at this page on some examples of design evolution: linkI think somebody put on this forum either picture or link on designs variant of HMS Dreadnought but I cannot find it. But you can find something on russian page of wiki: HMS Dreadnought - variants
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Post by yemo on Mar 6, 2019 13:24:41 GMT -6
dornThank you, both the russian wikipedia entry about Dreadnought and the article on austrian development are really fascinating! About alternative designs, the Athena from last page could even trade in one 12 inch gun (leaving 2x12inch forward, 1x12inch aft) for an additional knot of speed (from 22 to 23knots) while keeping the "CA" classification. I ll have to keep track of those classification details. Will have to take another look at my "outlier" designs. While I personally like them for my games, they do not quite fit this competition. It takes some getting used to, from defining everything yourself to designing for set requirements. Thank you for your help, I learn a lot.
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Post by aeson on Mar 6, 2019 14:42:00 GMT -6
aeson : Are you aware that Argonaut is CA, not CL as it has sloped deck insted protected cruiser armor scheme? In real life it is not the difference for using that ship but for RTW it is. I am aware that it is a CA, yes - that's partly what I was referencing when I said that it had a 'partial 2.5" armor belt.' I've used ~6,000t 6" CAs before (playing as Germany) and the game seemed to handle them more like similar CLs than like the larger CAs, and so while I haven't used a ~5,000t 7" CA before I'm hoping the same will be true for them. If you reduce the main battery to one gun or can keep the design displacement down to 10,000 tons, you can actually make the ship however fast you want it to be, at least within the constraints of your technology and the displacement you chose. Of course, a one-gun main battery is not particularly useful, and fitting a useful number of heavy guns onto a 10,000t design can require some pretty significant sacrifices elsewhere.
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Post by yemo on Mar 7, 2019 14:33:45 GMT -6
aeson dornHow is the AI treating the CA/BC distinction? Because the main issue I have with the Athena class and her 2x2x12 inch main guns, is the slow speed of 22 knots. 1 gun for 1 knot is a hard trade off just to keep the CA classification. I m not happy with the price of the 24knot Andromeda and would prefer it, if I could submit a 2x2x12 inch, 23/24 knot design (though the game would call it a BC).
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Post by dorn on Mar 7, 2019 14:55:10 GMT -6
aeson dorn How is the AI treating the CA/BC distinction? Because the main issue I have with the Athena class and her 2x2x12 inch main guns, is the slow speed of 22 knots. 1 gun for 1 knot is a hard trade off just to keep the CA classification. I m not happy with the price of the 24knot Andromeda and would prefer it, if I could submit a 2x2x12 inch, 23/24 knot design (though the game would call it a BC). I think but not completely certain that conditions for CA instead of B are (note: meaning using heavy guns 11" at least): - speed over 23 knots and higher - max 10" guns limitation as 11" and higher means BC
- speed 21-22 knots - max. 6" belt armor - speed 19-20 knots (included) - max. 5.5" belt armor - speed lower than 19 knots are not possible
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Post by aeson on Mar 7, 2019 15:03:44 GMT -6
aeson dorn How is the AI treating the CA/BC distinction? Because the main issue I have with the Athena class and her 2x2x12 inch main guns, is the slow speed of 22 knots. 1 gun for 1 knot is a hard trade off just to keep the CA classification. I m not happy with the price of the 24knot Andromeda and would prefer it, if I could submit a 2x2x12 inch, 23/24 knot design (though the game would call it a BC). Battle scenario generation seems to treat battlecruisers and large armored cruisers as almost interchangeable; they show up for most or all of the same kinds of missions, and both your own and your opponent's force compositions seem to be pretty similar whether you drew a large armored cruiser or a battlecruiser as the heaviest ship in your force. There might be a handful of battle definitions which permit armored cruisers but not battlecruisers, but they don't seem to be chosen all that frequently.
That said, creating a legal battlecruiser design for this competition is not possible, so far as I am aware; the power building the ship needs to have at least two levels of ship design before the game will allow it, neither Great Britain nor the United States has more than one level in Ship Design research in the save file dorn provided, and even if some other power has the requisite research level the state of world tensions precludes Britain from ordering ships anywhere else.
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Post by yemo on Mar 7, 2019 15:05:28 GMT -6
dorn Would you accept a BC submission for the armored cruiser competition or would that freak out the AI (eg by building more BC than it would do normally, if you already had one)? Not so much a problem between CA and CL, but I just do not know how it is about CA and BC.
Ah, that makes sense, never tried it.
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Post by dorn on Mar 7, 2019 15:27:11 GMT -6
dorn Would you accept a BC submission for the armored cruiser competition or would that freak out the AI (eg by building more BC than it would do normally, if you already had one)? Not so much a problem between CA and CL, but I just do not know how it is about CA and BC.
Ah, that makes sense, never tried it.
It could be BC however I do not think it is possible yet.
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Post by yemo on Mar 8, 2019 16:14:49 GMT -6
Following the feedback and a reevaluation of the available information, Beardmore Shipbuilding retracts the "Andromeda" armored cruiser and "Monoceros" protected cruiser designs (edited post on last page) and replaces them with the following ones:
1900/1/AC.yemo5: Antigone (replacing Andromeda)
Considerably cheaper than the Andromeda design it replaces, it retains the 24 knot speed. The armour is still very heavy for an armoured cruiser, including strong BE armour for the uptakes to retain speed during combat. And a large, 5inch uniform secondary battery avoids targetting confusion and provides additional superstructure protection due to its 2.5 inch armoured casemate design. While the great ammunition supply for the main guns supports prolonged engagements with the situationally correct shell types (and some additional flexibility for rebuilds). 5 submerged torpedo tubes may entice the crews to use them, even if the enemy is still moving at a slow pace. With its high speed, reliable armour and easily modifiable secondary features (ammo, torpedo tubes, secondary battery) this vessel is expected to be of great value today and considerable value in the future.
1900/2/CL.yemo6: Maia (replacing Monoceros)
A true multirole protected cruiser, Maia has a 5x6 inch broadside and two 6inch bow mounted guns to chase weaker enemies. The 2 inch BE armour provides splinter protection for her uptakes, allowing her to retain speed under fire. Together with generally great protected cruiser armour, she has enough staying power for a good fleet scout as well as a stern chaser and thus raider interceptor. Her 4900 tons displacement is enough to fulfill most of the empires oversea requirements, after a refit for colonial service.
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Post by dorn on Mar 11, 2019 8:12:54 GMT -6
CLOSING CONTEST Thank you Beardmore Shipbuilding and Balsa construction for participation in this contest.
As they are no more interest I am closing the contest - 1st round. I decided to push budget to maximum thus budget for construction is quite limited.
COMPETITION 1900/2/CL - 2 general purpose protected cruisers Royal Navy decided to order 2 ship of Amphion design from Balsa construction - one in November, one in January. Runner up - Argonaut design - I was really thinking to laid down at least on ship however it would mean postpoment of several ship for several month and Royal Navy has no budget for 3 such cruisers and laying down one of each class is not so effective. Maia design - very close however I prefer 40 % increase of broadside over better protection.
Manticore class - too expensive, there is no need for such powerful ship
COMPETITION 1900/1/AC - 1 armored cruiser Royal Navy decided to order 1 ship of Athena class from Beardmore Shipbuilding, her 12" guns would be usefull and could help heavy units and 1 knot of speed is not important enough. She will be laid down in December.
Runner up - Powerful design - Royal Navy prefers combination of 12" heavy guns with heavy secondary batter of 5" guns over mix of 10" and 8" guns. Europa design - this design would not bring much more power over previous class
Antigone design - too costly and firepower (heavy guns) is weak for such large ship
note: There is postponement for several ship to be laid down as it allows gun training from January and minesweeper construction program from March with last of 12 minesweepers expecting to be commisioned in January 1902.
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Post by dorn on Mar 11, 2019 18:31:14 GMT -6
Till the war
11/1900 – laid down protected cruiser HMS Amphion 11/1900 – Beardmore Shipbuilding increase dock size to 18000 tons. 11/1900 – Our top spy get blueprints of new 5100 tons class of Russian protected cruisers Pamyat Merkuriya with speed of 21 knots, 8x6“ unshielded guns, 24x3“, 3“ belt and 2“ deck armor. 12/1900 – France laid down new protected cruiser 4200 tons Surcouf class 12/1900 – Uprising in China – we decided to send force 12/1900 – armored cruiser HMS Athena laid down 1/1901 – protected cruiser HMS Argonaut laid down 1/1901 – battleship HMS Collingwood commissioned 1/1901 – There were heavy debates in House of Lords to reduce arms exenditure however it was not passed 2/1901 – Pressure hull for submarines invented 2/1901 – Japan commisioned armoured cruiser Tokiwa of her class – 12300 tons, 23 knots, only 3.5“ belt armour 2/1901 – Italy commisioned protected cruiser Bari, sole ship of her class – 3200 tons, 22 knots 2/1901 – Royal Navy ordered Gunnery training in whole fleet as response of raising tension with Germany and France 2/1901 – Royal Navy starts emergency minesweeper program – laid down first batch of 3 ships 3/1901 – Hardened AP penetrator invented 3/1901 – Japan laid down 4300 tons protected crusier Unebi class 3/1901 – battleship HMS Empress of India commissioned 4/1901 – DNC reports that we can build larger 600 tons destroyers 4/1901 – reports of invetion of Lyddite bursting charges 4/1901 – another batch of 3 minesweepers laid down 5/1901 – HMS Collingwood finished working up and is promoted as flagship of 2nd battle division 5/1901 – invented Improved riveting techniques 5/1901 – 2 intelligence reports from Germany stating Hertha armoured cruiser will be commissioned either in 4 or 5 months 5/1901 – our relation with France was sudden turned to worse 6/1901 – invented Cockburn safety valve 6/1901 – Russia commissioned protected cruiser Pamyat Merkuriya 6/1901 – another batch of 3 minesweepers laid down 6/1901 – 2 minesweepers commisioned surpassing their design speed making 20 knots 6/1901 – new goverment was announced and immediately wants reduce naval spending in favour of social programms. As we are close to war with Germany and France, several British admirals start to have doubts about intelligence of new ministers and start to protest. 7/1901 – final batch of 3 minesweepers laid down 7/1901 – Double bottom invented 7/1901 – Germany declares war to Great Britain 7/1901 – Cruiser action at East Prusia during patrol near East Prussia – Patrolling protected cruiser Arethusa and Phaeton intercepted 1st Germany cruiser divison of 2 protected cruisers escorted by 3 destroyers lost near East Prussia but lost them after sunset. During night another Germany cruiser division of 2 protected cruisers were intercepted but get umbrella of the port Pillau.
Game note 1: All German fleet remains in German ports, I have 2 battleships and 10 destroyers more, they have 5 cruisers more in Northern Europe. Game note 2: Quite strange as I am behind in technology.
Note: I was quite suprised that during battle even class information could be wrong. I was used to incorrect information of the ship type (B/BB/CA/CL/DD/MS etc.) but it is for the first time I can see name of class actually changed during battle. One of German cruisers were misidentified.
I will continue tommorow, any suggestions welcome.
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Post by yemo on Mar 11, 2019 19:40:58 GMT -6
Beardmore Shipbuilding is delighted to recieve your order of an Athena class heavy cruiser. Considering the heightened tensions, we hope that it will arrive in time to make a difference. ;-) 6/1901 government wants to cut funds, 7/1901 german declaration of war. At least the french are not in the fight (yet). Although they have only one B so far, 2(.5) additional enemy heavy CAs can be troublesome, especially if they stay in the mediterranean and force you to split your attention. Hope you can somewhat thin out the High Seas Fleet until then. I have only noticed some speed difference for the class information, but have not paid too much attention so far.
Suggestions: 1. Ship design research to high priority to make the most out of the national advantage, gun research at least to medium, maybe it brings better 5, 6, 10 or 12 inch guns. 2. Somehow make the most of the british B and DD advantage?
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Post by aeson on Mar 11, 2019 21:56:03 GMT -6
You should be able to defeat Germany by blockade as long as France does not enter the war, and if France does join the war you'll probably want to have as many of your ships still in service as possible. I would therefore suggest that force preservation is a more important objective than the destruction of the German fleet, and so equal-numbers engagements between your Diadems and the German Vinetas should probably be avoided if possible. It would probably also be best to exercise caution when taking an Arethusa against Gefion, Thetis, and Ariadne, though an Arethusa can probably defeat any of those three in a one-on-one engagement. I don't think that the lighter German cruisers should be much of a problem except as raiders or as screens protecting heavier ships against your destroyers' torpedoes.
As to potential wartime construction programs, I think you're still in a reasonably good position with regards to capital ships, I don't see much immediate need for additional destroyers or, probably, minesweepers, and while I'm ambivalent about your situation vis a vis first class cruisers I also don't think you can afford to lay down another Athena much before Amphion commissions, by which point it might be better to lay down a ship to a new design rather than to an existing one. As I see it, then, your best options are probably to lay down a third Amphion or similar cruiser once the minesweepers currently under construction are completed, or to save up money and wait for at least Amphion to complete before laying down at least one ship to a new design. A third Amphion laid down once enough of the minesweepers complete might arrive in time for the later part of the current war and give you a fifth second class cruiser above your station requirements (assuming no losses from current forces or construction programs); waiting for Amphion to complete so that you can lay something down to a new design probably means that whatever you lay down will miss this war, especially if you lay down something heavy, but would also allow you to lay down a first class cruiser (where you're qualitatively weaker) and might allow you to lay down ships to a design notably better than anything currently in service or under construction, depending on how your research goes. I slightly lean towards waiting for Amphion to complete and laying down at least one ship to a new design, myself, but I'm not quite sure about it because I also think you have almost too few available second class cruisers.
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