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Post by generalvikus on Mar 5, 2019 9:53:51 GMT -6
I know that there is an accuracy penalty for more than one battery firing at a given target, and conversely an accuracy bonus for being untargeted. Similarly, I was wondering if the number of guns fired in a single battery against a target affects accuracy, as a greater number of shells fired will decrease the effects of random variation in shell trajectory on targeting?
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Post by noshurviverse on Mar 5, 2019 10:48:00 GMT -6
While I don't know if a larger amount of guns increases accuracy, a small enough battery will apply a negative modifier.
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Post by generalvikus on Mar 5, 2019 11:00:04 GMT -6
While I don't know if a larger amount of guns increases accuracy, a small enough battery will apply a negative modifier. Thanks! How small is too small?
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Post by noshurviverse on Mar 5, 2019 11:10:03 GMT -6
Thanks! How small is too small? I don't know for sure, it might be only one or two. I usually use a 3x7" configuration for my legacy CLs and I don't think I get the debuff with those.
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Post by dorn on Mar 5, 2019 11:55:57 GMT -6
While I don't know if a larger amount of guns increases accuracy, a small enough battery will apply a negative modifier. Thanks! How small is too small? If you are fighting, look at details on accuracy (in ship detailed picture), there will be mentioned small salvo and malus.
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Post by Adseria on Mar 5, 2019 12:09:42 GMT -6
Thanks! How small is too small? I don't know for sure, it might be only one or two. I usually use a 3x7" configuration for my legacy CLs and I don't think I get the debuff with those. As far as I can tell, the exact number varies, either with the date the ship is built/commissioned/rebuilt, with the number of guns available relative to the maximum number of guns, or with the calibre of the guns (or some combination thereof). For instance, a standard legacy pre-dreadnought with 4x12" guns doesn't get the penalty, but a ship with, say, 10x16" guns in 5 twin turrets that gets 3 turrets disabled or destroyed (leaving it with 4x16") does get the penalty. I always assumed that this was because the ship had less than the maximum number of guns available, but I could be wrong (and probably am ).
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 5, 2019 15:39:51 GMT -6
The critical number of guns is probably three, given the factors involved in real life gunnery:
When shooting at a target, you estimate the range based on a reading from an optical rangefinder, set the elevation of your guns accordingly, and fire. You then observe whether the salvo landed short, over, or on target, and adjust accordingly. If you're just firing one gun, and your aim point is slightly short, the shell might still land long due to random variation, and you might correct in the wrong direction. With multiple guns, you can aim one right at your estimated distance, and some of the rest deliberately short and some deliberately over, and if you're consistently straddling the target, you know that you've got the range and can set all of your guns for that range. The smallest number of guns for which this works well is three (one short, one on range and one over), and with more than four the number of shell splashes makes it difficult to count shorts and overs, so ranging fire would generally use salvoes of three or four guns. This was why you generally didn't see fewer than eight guns on a battleship: they liked to be able to fire alternating half-salvoes of three or four guns so that delays in reloading didn't show down their rate of fire. Six guns was the minimum for this, and with six guns if one or more was put out of action for a bit, you'd have to accept a reduced rate of fire, or less than three guns on some or all salvoes.
I myself find that the advantages of a six gun battery in RTW outweigh the potential reliability issues, so I like to build a battle line of six-gun heavy-armor BCs, but that's just me.
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Post by williammiller on Mar 5, 2019 16:37:51 GMT -6
IIRC I provided a set of modifiers for accuracy for SAI derived from data of some 1930s USN studies that showed how the number of barrels firing in a salvo affected accuracy (i.e. via spotting the fall, corrections, etc). From 1 barrel up to about 5-6 barrels the increase is fairly significant, but from ~ 7 barrels or more the increase become less significant or even nil. I believe Fredrik used at least some of this data for SAI and RTW.
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Post by Adseria on Mar 5, 2019 19:25:45 GMT -6
The critical number of guns is probably three, given the factors involved in real life gunnery: When shooting at a target, you estimate the range based on a reading from an optical rangefinder, set the elevation of your guns accordingly, and fire. You then observe whether the salvo landed short, over, or on target, and adjust accordingly. If you're just firing one gun, and your aim point is slightly short, the shell might still land long due to random variation, and you might correct in the wrong direction. With multiple guns, you can aim one right at your estimated distance, and some of the rest deliberately short and some deliberately over, and if you're consistently straddling the target, you know that you've got the range and can set all of your guns for that range. The smallest number of guns for which this works well is three (one short, one on range and one over), and with more than four the number of shell splashes makes it difficult to count shorts and overs, so ranging fire would generally use salvoes of three or four guns. This was why you generally didn't see fewer than eight guns on a battleship: they liked to be able to fire alternating half-salvoes of three or four guns so that delays in reloading didn't show down their rate of fire. Six guns was the minimum for this, and with six guns if one or more was put out of action for a bit, you'd have to accept a reduced rate of fire, or less than three guns on some or all salvoes. I myself find that the advantages of a six gun battery in RTW outweigh the potential reliability issues, so I like to build a battle line of six-gun heavy-armor BCs, but that's just me. "A ship with, say, 10x16" guns in 5 twin turrets that gets 3 turrets disabled or destroyed (leaving it with 4x16") does get the penalty."
When I said this, it wasn't an estimate; I actually have specific memories of being in battle with a ship with that gun config, that lost all but A and B turrets, and was getting the aim penalty, so the penalty isn't "always 3 or less guns" as you suggest.. And anyone who hasn't fought a battle with a 4x12" pre-dreadnought either is lying, or doesn't have the game.
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Post by aeson on Mar 5, 2019 19:53:30 GMT -6
And anyone who hasn't fought a battle with a 4x12" pre-dreadnought either is lying, or doesn't have the game. It is entirely possible to avoid fighting a war until very late in the game, or even to never fight a war before reaching the end of the game. It is also possible to lose the game to low prestige before ever getting into a war. While I would think it very unlikely that someone who has played the game through to an end many times would never have fought a battle with predreadnought or semidreadnought battleships, I regard it as entirely plausible that someone who has only played the game a handful of times might never have fought an engagement in which predreadnought or semidreadnought battleships were involved.
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 5, 2019 20:28:01 GMT -6
"A ship with, say, 10x16" guns in 5 twin turrets that gets 3 turrets disabled or destroyed (leaving it with 4x16") does get the penalty."
When I said this, it wasn't an estimate; I actually have specific memories of being in battle with a ship with that gun config, that lost all but A and B turrets, and was getting the aim penalty, so the penalty isn't "always 3 or less guns" as you suggest. Well, I would suspect that the penalty would be determined by the number of guns fired in a given salvo, not the total number of guns that are operational. However, the fewer guns you have operational, the more likely you are to fire less than the critical number of guns in a given salvo. Four guns is enough that a full salvo won't get the penalty if you need three guns, but if for any reason you're reduced to a half salvo, you will get the penalty.
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Post by Adseria on Mar 5, 2019 20:28:11 GMT -6
And anyone who hasn't fought a battle with a 4x12" pre-dreadnought either is lying, or doesn't have the game. It is entirely possible to avoid fighting a war until very late in the game, or even to never fight a war before reaching the end of the game. It is also possible to lose the game to low prestige before ever getting into a war. While I would think it very unlikely that someone who has played the game through to an end many times would never have fought a battle with predreadnought or semidreadnought battleships, I regard it as entirely plausible that someone who has only played the game a handful of times might never have fought an engagement in which predreadnought or semidreadnought battleships were involved. Stop being pedantic and accept my comedic genius for what it is!
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Post by williammiller on Mar 5, 2019 22:56:41 GMT -6
Also remember that sometimes an individual gun will 'miss out' on a salvo due to a number of possible issues...this was fairly common in real life, many ships could manage a 70-90% 'per salvo reliability rate' at best for their main battery, even during target practice. Note that this may make a ship fire fewer shells than the 'nominal' number of working guns would indicate at times.
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 6, 2019 1:23:26 GMT -6
That was basically what I was getting at. And towards the end of the RTW period, ~30 sec was a fairly typical ideal reload time for guns, and while this was often not achieved in combat, it means that even if you see a ship's full number of working guns fired in a turn, it might be two back to back half-salvoes from half the guns while crews for the other half of the guns are fumbling their shells.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 6, 2019 18:33:02 GMT -6
So, does anyone know what "ship protocol" was when the guns were being trained? Were they not allowed to be trained unless general quarters were sounded? I would think that would be a bit of a shock to be mopping the teak when the turret starts revolving next to you.
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