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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 20, 2019 9:23:04 GMT -6
I still think that a "war" between two AI nations would be good; even if the "war" lasts a single month, and the only thing we ever see about it is one popup that says something like "Russia and Japan have gone to war over North Korea, Japan has won and occupied the colony. Russian ships B Knyaz Suvorov, B Imperator Aleksandr III, B Borodino and B Oslyabya have been sunk" thats it. Don't need anything more complicated. example of what they might look like
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Post by jeb94 on Apr 20, 2019 13:38:02 GMT -6
I still think that a "war" between two AI nations would be good; even if the "war" lasts a single month, and the only thing we ever see about it is one popup that says something like "Russia and Japan have gone to war over North Korea, Japan has won and occupied the colony. Russian ships B Knyaz Suvorov, B Imperator Aleksandr III, B Borodino and B Oslyabya have been sunk" thats it. Don't need anything more complicated. example of what they might look like The only problem I have with this is it happens in one turn. Wars need to last multiple turns with numerous events during the period that the war is being fought. Those events could have no effect on the player nation or they could indirectly or directly effect the player. Your government can be swayed by its citizens or by events to stay out or join the war on one side or the other. A simple one turn random event war like this just doesn’t make sense to me and would be immersion breaking.
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 20, 2019 14:45:39 GMT -6
example of what they might look like The only problem I have with this is it happens in one turn. Wars need to last multiple turns with numerous events during the period that the war is being fought. Those events could have no effect on the player nation or they could indirectly or directly effect the player. Your government can be swayed by its citizens or by events to stay out or join the war on one side or the other. A simple one turn random event war like this just doesn’t make sense to me and would be immersion breaking. I disagree, strongly. AI wars need to happen. If they have to be one turn due to code limitations, so be it. I don't want one-turn wars, I want full AI wars with full AI (but unseen) combat. I want the ability to come sail to the rescue of an ally. I want the ability to potentially join an already ongoing war. However If the only wars that can be done are single-turn wars, then, and only then, I want single-turn wars, and want them badly.
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Post by mycophobia on Apr 20, 2019 15:13:33 GMT -6
example of what they might look like The only problem I have with this is it happens in one turn. Wars need to last multiple turns with numerous events during the period that the war is being fought. Those events could have no effect on the player nation or they could indirectly or directly effect the player. Your government can be swayed by its citizens or by events to stay out or join the war on one side or the other. A simple one turn random event war like this just doesn’t make sense to me and would be immersion breaking. If the immersion breaking is an issue, one can always have a war declaration event that have no effect in of itself. But lead to a war conclusion event X turns later that list the results. Your version would’ve certainly be more ideal but I think it is important to at least have a avenue where ai military power can deplete without player action.
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 20, 2019 15:22:18 GMT -6
The only problem I have with this is it happens in one turn. Wars need to last multiple turns with numerous events during the period that the war is being fought. Those events could have no effect on the player nation or they could indirectly or directly effect the player. Your government can be swayed by its citizens or by events to stay out or join the war on one side or the other. A simple one turn random event war like this just doesn’t make sense to me and would be immersion breaking. If the immersion breaking is an issue, one can always have a war declaration event that have no effect in of itself. But lead to a war conclusion event X turns later that list the results. Your version would’ve certainly be more ideal but I think it is important to at least have a avenue where ai military power can deplete without player action. for me that is what is key, that AI nations can sink each other's ships, and, they can take each other's colonies.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 20, 2019 16:32:16 GMT -6
If the immersion breaking is an issue, one can always have a war declaration event that have no effect in of itself. But lead to a war conclusion event X turns later that list the results. Your version would’ve certainly be more ideal but I think it is important to at least have a avenue where ai military power can deplete without player action. for me that is what is key, that AI nations can sink each other's ships, and, they can take each other's colonies. This is the key point. There has to be some other limiting factor on AI fleets or the game becomes unrealistic. That was the main drawback of RTW. Unless playing as one of them and periodically thrashing the other, the fleets Britain and the US became impossible to beat.
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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 21, 2019 3:16:55 GMT -6
for me that is what is key, that AI nations can sink each other's ships, and, they can take each other's colonies. This is the key point. There has to be some other limiting factor on AI fleets or the game becomes unrealistic. That was the main drawback of RTW. Unless playing as one of them and periodically thrashing the other, the fleets Britain and the US became impossible to beat. I have to disagree with both your premise and solution. I find GB entirely manageable as, say, Italy in the late game by utilizing asymmetric warfare. The might of British dreadnoughts means little to a DD torpedo attack at midnight. Also, I fear this idea of yours may actually have the opposite of its intended effect. I find the opponents I most thoroughly defeat rise from the ashes the fastest, as they can invest in modern ships due to the heavy losses I inflict. If older ships are being lost, they will only be replaced with newer ones. My idea would be to expand random events that target individual ships. For example - Ship running aground and being lost alá Espana. - colonial ships being lost to rebel sabatours - DD or similar small ships being rammed and sunk during fleet exercises
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 21, 2019 3:36:51 GMT -6
This is the key point. There has to be some other limiting factor on AI fleets or the game becomes unrealistic. That was the main drawback of RTW. Unless playing as one of them and periodically thrashing the other, the fleets Britain and the US became impossible to beat. I have to disagree with both your premise and solution. I find GB entirely manageable as, say, Italy in the late game by utilizing asymmetric warfare. The might of British dreadnoughts means little to a DD torpedo attack at midnight. Also, I fear this idea of yours may actually have the opposite of its intended effect. I find the opponents I most thoroughly defeat rise from the ashes the fastest, as they can invest in modern ships due to the heavy losses I inflict. If older ships are being lost, they will only be replaced with newer ones. My idea would be to expand random events that target individual ships. For example - Ship running aground and being lost alá Espana. - colonial ships being lost to rebel sabatours - DD or similar small ships being rammed and sunk during fleet exercises Then we will have to agree to disagree. One of the US or Britain is manageable as a small country but not both. My other reason for advocating full AI wars is the fact that, even if you win a war, you will lose ships that take time or resources to replace. However, only the enemy you defeated has any depletion of their fleet. The rest just carry on with their shipbuilding programmes leading to wars with battle lines of 4 modern dreadnoughts against the might of 20, especially when you haven't been to war with them in a while. Events could go some way to amend this but not in the correct quantity without becoming unrealistic.
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Post by britishball on Apr 21, 2019 4:33:49 GMT -6
The only problem I have with this is it happens in one turn. Wars need to last multiple turns with numerous events during the period that the war is being fought. Those events could have no effect on the player nation or they could indirectly or directly effect the player. Your government can be swayed by its citizens or by events to stay out or join the war on one side or the other. A simple one turn random event war like this just doesn’t make sense to me and would be immersion breaking. If the immersion breaking is an issue, one can always have a war declaration event that have no effect in of itself. But lead to a war conclusion event X turns later that list the results. Your version would’ve certainly be more ideal but I think it is important to at least have a avenue where ai military power can deplete without player action. Aye!Simplest solution: Have a random chance of war between two nations that instantly hands over territory and sinks some ships.Simple solution: Have a random chance of war that starts then rolls a dice BTS that decideds who wins and in how many turns (say 3-23 turns) and how much one side loses, when that timer is up the second event fires which hands over territory and sinks ships.Intermediate solution: Have a set chance of war dicated by rolling a dice BTS every turn, very low (0.5%) chance of war between democracies, higher (1%) on democracy vs dictatorship, very high (2%) between dictatorships; that also decides BTS who wins, in how many turns and how many ships are sunk, when the timer is up it sinks ships and hands over territory.In depth solution: Have a set chance of war dicated by rolling a dice BTS every turn, very low (0.5%) chance of war between democracies, higher (1%) on democracy vs dictatorship, very high (2%) between dictatorships; have a weighted algorithm that determines who should win based off scoring their current fleets and what they have that will come out of production over the course of the war, it evaluates every 4-6 turns and sinks some ships based on how strong each side is compared to the other until the war ends at the set turn when it sinks some more ships and hands over territory.Deepest solution: Have the computer actually track each AI nation in the end turn, have them decide who to war with based on a fleet score and how likely they are to win, but each turn re-evaluate, have the battles all be decided by playing BTS AIvsAI battles between whatever ships would be fighting if one of those nations were player controlled, have the AI garrison home sea zones with roughly 40%-60% of its navy and colonies with the rest based on how valuable they are, have the AI move to attack sea zones again in proportion to how valuable it is and how defended it is.At the very least I personally believe the simplest solution should be implemented, I don't think that however bad or abstract AIvsAI wars are they would detract from the realism or experience, I believe something as important as wars you aren't involved in should be included in anything that calls itself war strategy.
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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 21, 2019 8:58:51 GMT -6
Then we will have to agree to disagree. One of the US or Britain is manageable as a small country but not both. Events could go some way to amend this but not in the correct quantity without becoming unrealistic. Why would you expect to be able to easily go toe-to-toe with not only the biggest naval power, but also the second biggest naval power simultaneously as a small nation? Great Britain and the United States are often considered "final bosses" because of their naval power. It seems you want them brought down to the player's level, but doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of them being great naval powers? Also, would your solution not also lead to Great Britain and the United States becoming even easier to play, as the nations you dwarf have large chunks of their fleet deleted at random?
To the best of my knowledge, the AI has to build within their budget limitations. Assuming that is the case, then peacetime nations will be operating with peacetime budgets. Meanwhile, the player receives a major budget increase every time they go to war, which facilitates rapid fleet expansion and encourages extending wars.
I would argue the same for your solution. Unless you intend for this to only occasionally happen, but in that case you're taking a constant "problem" and applying an only occasional solution.
Now, with all that being said, I do entirely agree that AI wars should happen. It was one of my biggest hopes for RtW2 and finding out nothing was planned was extremely disappointing. I just feel that your issue with Player vs. AI fleets has little to do with the matter.
Simple solution: Have a random chance of war that starts then rolls a dice BTS that decideds who wins and in how many turns (say 3-23 turns) and how much one side loses, when that timer is up the second event fires which hands over territory and sinks ships.At the very least I personally believe the simplest solution should be implemented, I don't think that however bad or abstract AIvsAI wars are they would detract from the realism or experience, I believe something as important as wars you aren't involved in should be included in anything that calls itself war strategy.While ideally I'd like for wars to be simulated with some degree of detail, I think the minimum I'd take without feeling like it was a hasty patch job would be roughly like your "simple" solution. I'd personally have it play out something like this: •Month 1: AI Conflict Emerges •Example: The political situation between Germany and France has taken a sudden turn for the worse! Newspapers across the world wonder if war is soon to be. •Month 2-4: Update •Germany and France have gone to war! •Or: Relations between Germany and France continue to remain tense.
•Or: The tensions between Germany and France have cooled and both parties seem keen on resolving their issues diplomatically. [END EVENT] •Every 1-2 months after: Engagements •The German ship CL Dresden has been sunk! •Several months later: Resolution •France and Germany have come to a compromise peace. Small concessions have been afforded to both sides.
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Post by williammiller on Apr 21, 2019 9:12:29 GMT -6
The above are all good suggestions/ideas, and something for us to consider for possible adding on later. Thanks!
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Post by tortugapower on Apr 21, 2019 13:27:28 GMT -6
I think I could create a mod to do this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to add pop-ups to the game, but I could probably throw a Windows generic pop-up.
(But it would be easy to have the front-end of international wars, with the back-end being my combat simulator, which already works.)
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Post by mycophobia on Apr 21, 2019 17:50:53 GMT -6
Adding a little to them war simulation debate, besides the losing of ships/territory. War, assuming it is not the absolutely minimal version of 1 turn pop up, should have an impact on the budget and tech speed of an enemy nation.
War, especially if a victorious one should not necessarily be destructive to AI. The improved war time budget can result in AI actually getting more/better ship than it started with.(although with a corresponding post war cut)
While I understand that this may further exacerbate the late war UK/US problem, I feel it is very interesting to see some otherwise lesser naval power raise to prominence over the 50 year span of gameplay. (The UK/US problem can be mediated either by a healthy chance for the lesser power to win, or just reduce/remove the budget/tech buff to these two nations when they are in an AI war)
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Post by Emma de Normandie on Jun 29, 2020 19:27:22 GMT -6
The above are all good suggestions/ideas, and something for us to consider for possible adding on later. Thanks! Thank you for taking notice of this thread. I fully support the introduction of AI wars in coming updates.
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Post by Emma de Normandie on Jun 29, 2020 19:28:34 GMT -6
I think I could create a mod to do this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to add pop-ups to the game, but I could probably throw a Windows generic pop-up. (But it would be easy to have the front-end of international wars, with the back-end being my combat simulator, which already works.) This would be a great idea, I can't wait to see something like this happen
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