Conducting Torpedo Attacks

[generalvikus]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anybody could give me some tips for conducting torpedo attacks with DDs. So far, I feel that unless I'm in Captain's mode and able to manually fire the torpedoes, I can only use torpedoes effectively to finish off cripples; I have never been able to conduct a successful large - scale torpedo attack against an enemy fleet, even when the opportunity has presented itself as battle divisions have become isolated from their escorts. My general practice is to assemble the destroyers in line ahead formation and sail them parallel to the target, but this tactic simply doesn't seem to produce results and makes me wonder if I'm missing something. I wonder, perhaps, if torpedo training is more or less mandatory for effective results? Any advice or information on the topic of destroyer and torpedo tactics is welcome.

[MateDow]

Mar 19, 2019 20:56:56 GMT -6 generalvikus said:

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anybody could give me some tips for conducting torpedo attacks with DDs. So far, I feel that unless I'm in Captain's mode and able to manually fire the torpedoes, I can only use torpedoes effectively to finish off cripples; I have never been able to conduct a successful large - scale torpedo attack against an enemy fleet, even when the opportunity has presented itself as battle divisions have become isolated from their escorts. My general practice is to assemble the destroyers in line ahead formation and sail them parallel to the target, but this tactic simply doesn't seem to produce results and makes me wonder if I'm missing something. I wonder, perhaps, if torpedo training is more or less mandatory for effective results? Any advice or information on the topic of destroyer and torpedo tactics is welcome.

Wait until 1915 to attack?

Seriously though, I have seen my destroyers launch torpedo attacks when they are ahead of their target at an angle of about 30° off the bow at a range of about 75% of the torpedo range.  I only run in admiral mode, so I can't talk about the finer points of manually controlling the destroyers.

Oh, and nighttime doesn't hurt either.

[JagdFlanker]

i'v only ever played on 'admiral mode' and i don't know exactly at what point DDs become more aggressive with their torp attacks, but:

i research 'fleet tactics' on high assuming that has something to do with it, and torp tech is likely a huge factor as well so it wouldn't hurt to have that on high as well

once i get 'DD screen' i make sure all my DD escorts are changed to 'screen' in every battle (a pain in the ass to manually do it every battle, but whatever).  i never figured out the true difference between 'support' and 'screen' but i assume 'support' has  DDs escorting your capital ships on the side away from the enemy while 'screen' has the DDs placing themselves between your capital ships and the enemy's ships, which means they are closer to the enemy when you order a 'fleet attack'

i attach all (large) DD formations to support/screen my lead TF so when i give the order for 'fleet attack' they are all close by to receive the order. DD formations of 1-2 ships i often leave be (unless all of them contain 1-2 DDs).  i also try to get relatively close to the enemy fleet before giving the 'fleet attack' order

at the beginning of the game i set my training to 'gunnery' and 'night fighting', but once my DDs can each launch a 4 or more torp spread i change 'night fighting' to 'torp warfare'

i make sure i have about 2-3 DDs for every capital ship in my fleet to maximize the size of my DD formations
(i play with very large fleets and generally have 36 DDs in service, all with my single main fleet)


in the end i'm not sure exactly what period in game or what factors that cause DDs to turn from mild mannered pets to aggressive attack dogs, but i assume it's a mix of better fleet tactics, longer range torps, torp warfare training, and bigger torp volleys

[director]

Much of the who-when-how-why of torpedo attacks remains mysterious. From my own experience:

Attacks get much better after the deployment of dual (or triple or quad) torpedo mounts. Before that, your DD skippers believe they have to pay for torps out of their own pockets; after it they throw them away like sailors spending money on shore leave.
 
To launch a torpedo attack, I select the flotilla, assign it a target, put it in 'Independent' mode and raise the Torpedo Attack flag on the flagship.
I have been known to take manual control and drive the DDs into the enemy formation... usually they'll launch but mostly they die.

As I've said elsewhere, torpedo attacks depend on a lot of things, but the most important is location. (others are torpedo speed and range, defender's speed and size).
If the attacker is ahead of the defender, torpedo overtake is rapid (attacker speed plus torpedo speed) and defender's 'dodge time' is small. If you are shooting from behind the beam at a high-speed enemy who is opening or maintaining the range, you likely just wasted a load of fish.

You will quickly notice that the enemy will always move to get ahead of your beam and will never permit you to get ahead of his. This is why he always torpedoes you and you never torpedo him, at least until 1916 or later. I have found it useful to hold my line and require the enemy to close on me (though how he can always out-flank me I don't know). Lure him into advancing on you, smother his lead elements with fire and then launch a mass torpedo attack. Destroyers are the cavalry of naval action - which means they are fragile, and once you commit them you can rarely reform them to make another charge. Plus, the milli-second you raise that Torpedo Attack flag, the enemy will turn away... you have to draw them in CLOSE to make it count, or wound them so they can't run.

Of course, you can threaten a torpedo attack and force him to turn away, then cancel it... Heh. All's fair against the AI.


The difference between 'screen' and 'support' is this: 'Screen' means form a semi-circular shield in front of the flagship; support means form line and trail behind the flagship. Screen helps shield against mines and submarine attacks while Support keeps a reaction force near to hand for a counter-attack.

[generalvikus]

Mar 21, 2019 20:14:37 GMT -6 director said:

Much of the who-when-how-why of torpedo attacks remains mysterious. From my own experience:

Attacks get much better after the deployment of dual (or triple or quad) torpedo mounts. Before that, your DD skippers believe they have to pay for torps out of their own pockets; after it they throw them away like sailors spending money on shore leave.
 
To launch a torpedo attack, I select the flotilla, assign it a target, put it in 'Independent' mode and raise the Torpedo Attack flag on the flagship.
I have been known to take manual control and drive the DDs into the enemy formation... usually they'll launch but mostly they die.

As I've said elsewhere, torpedo attacks depend on a lot of things, but the most important is location. (others are torpedo speed and range, defender's speed and size).
If the attacker is ahead of the defender, torpedo overtake is rapid (attacker speed plus torpedo speed) and defender's 'dodge time' is small. If you are shooting from behind the beam at a high-speed enemy who is opening or maintaining the range, you likely just wasted a load of fish.

You will quickly notice that the enemy will always move to get ahead of your beam and will never permit you to get ahead of his. This is why he always torpedoes you and you never torpedo him, at least until 1916 or later. I have found it useful to hold my line and require the enemy to close on me (though how he can always out-flank me I don't know). Lure him into advancing on you, smother his lead elements with fire and then launch a mass torpedo attack. Destroyers are the cavalry of naval action - which means they are fragile, and once you commit them you can rarely reform them to make another charge. Plus, the milli-second you raise that Torpedo Attack flag, the enemy will turn away... you have to draw them in CLOSE to make it count, or wound them so they can't run.

Of course, you can threaten a torpedo attack and force him to turn away, then cancel it... Heh. All's fair against the AI.


The difference between 'screen' and 'support' is this: 'Screen' means form a semi-circular shield in front of the flagship; support means form line and trail behind the flagship. Screen helps shield against mines and submarine attacks while Support keeps a reaction force near to hand for a counter-attack.

Thank you very much, that's a very great deal of useful information! 

Could you elaborate on your last paragraph, for the uninitiated such as myself? You say '...hold your line and require the enemy to close on me. Lure him into advancing on you...' 

Firstly, what do you mean by 'hold your line?' Secondly, what is your method for luring the enemy? Usually at the start of a battleship engagement I'll press my scouting elements forward until I find the enemy fleet, allow them to 'latch on' to the scouting vessels, and then lure them into range of my battle line. If I expect the enemy to try to flee, I will usually try to get between him and his port before kiting him into visual range of my battle line. One thing I've noticed lately is that a fleet without plentiful destroyer coverage has very little ability to prevent the enemy battle line from charging straight past it.

You say that once you commit the destroyers you can rarely reform them for a second attack, but also that you can force an enemy to turn away by ordering an attack and then cancelling it. At what point are the destroyers 'committed?'

You say the AI will always turn away to avoid allowing his enemy to get in front of him. Is it therefore a good idea to try and surround him with two parallel lines of destroyers? 

Finally, perhaps the most important thing: you say you have to draw the enemy in close to make a torpedo attack count: generally, how close is close enough at various points in time? 

Aside from all of that, I'd like to say thanks once again for the reply - I probably haven't learned so much from such a short post on these forums before. Have you ever considered writing, perhaps along with some of the other veteran players, a 'tactical guide?' Compared with strategic matters, tactics are hardly discussed at all on these forums, and I expect that lots of people could benefit from even an elementary discussion of them: things like the need to get ahead of the enemy to launch a successful torpedo attack, for example. 

[akosjaccik]

Excellent and informative discussion, all I could add is a picture I found on my hard drive (rear admiral's mode). It illustrates fairly well what you gents talked about above, and shows who had good solutions for launch.

I generally don't like to throw away any of my vessels (if for nothing else, for "roleplay purposes" I guess), but this time I was bored and angered of running away, and decided to take a chance. I utilized the destroyers' smaller turning radius and somewhat better speed, and when the BC chased after the feinted retreat, at the point of my enemy closing in I ordered a turn, stopped generating smoke and ordered flank ahead. Probably due to the excessive speed and maneuvering, my destroyer screen broke up, but because the flagship CA hounded as close and quick as possible, I did not lose individual control, which ultimately played to my hand (and I do not feel too guilty either, after all, at this point radios were clearly a thing ). The result was more than lucky.

Should a single shell as much as immobilize any of the leading destroyers, there would be a clear path of escape. Maybe one reason for the succes was that the BC had time to hit my CA fairly dangerously before the desperate counterattack, but in turn the huh, probably 10" main guns also had time to rake the battlecruiser. It did not, of course, pose a threat to the flotation, but at least got rid a number of the secondary guns and maybe caused trouble for fire control in multiple ways, allowing more breathing room for the destroyers.

[yemo]

When I needed a respite from the disappointment of early DDs, I start a game as Japan and used their "surprise attack" trait against the Russians anchoring at Porth Arthur (and then against the Germans, but they provide much fewer target ships).

It would be cool if we could get such a surprise attack as a rare battle scenario. Perhaps only against ships in non-home sea zones with minor bases.

[dougphresh]

I'm new to the game, but I have stubbornly tried to play as France and focus on DDs and CLs with Torps as my main weapon. In 3 games, I don't think I've gotten a single hit.
In terms of tech, I have sleek, fast DDs making 33kts before 1905, but when they go in to attack - slow, awkward tubs barely making 19kts shred them with their weird mixes of calibers in casemates!

Is there a point where DDs and CLs become "good"? I think I'm trying to make a 1936 navy work with 1899 tech and suffering for it, but I don't know what to do.

[dorn]

Apr 5, 2019 19:40:33 GMT -6 dougphresh said:

I'm new to the game, but I have stubbornly tried to play as France and focus on DDs and CLs with Torps as my main weapon. In 3 games, I don't think I've gotten a single hit.
In terms of tech, I have sleek, fast DDs making 33kts before 1905, but when they go in to attack - slow, awkward tubs barely making 19kts shred them with their weird mixes of calibers in casemates!

Is there a point where DDs and CLs become "good"? I think I'm trying to make a 1936 navy work with 1899 tech and suffering for it, but I don't know what to do.

When destroyers has more torpedo tubes (at least 4, ideally 6) they are becoming more potent as their captains do not hesitate to fire torpedoes so much (has more of them so they do not focuse so much on precise shot)

In early of century destroyers are not very potent and usually used only to finish cripple ships. It starts to change mainly with double torpedo tubes which allow much more torpedo tubes on destroyers (around 1912)

You can help situation to order torpedo attack by selecting your division (right click) and use button for that.

Relating to speed of your destroyers it depends on several thing, better if you have screenshot to see your issue:

- weather - can limit speed of destroyers (it is visible on detail about your ship - righ click - just under the picture/drawing of your ship)

- the role of destroyer - if they are screening capital ship they can sail in similar speed as these ships and have no reasons going faster

[director]

Firstly, what do you mean by 'hold your line?' Secondly, what is your method for luring the enemy? Usually at the start of a battleship engagement I'll press my scouting elements forward until I find the enemy fleet, allow them to 'latch on' to the scouting vessels, and then lure them into range of my battle line. If I expect the enemy to try to flee, I will usually try to get between him and his port before kiting him into visual range of my battle line. One thing I've noticed lately is that a fleet without plentiful destroyer coverage has very little ability to prevent the enemy battle line from charging straight past it.

You say that once you commit the destroyers you can rarely reform them for a second attack, but also that you can force an enemy to turn away by ordering an attack and then cancelling it. At what point are the destroyers 'committed?'

You say the AI will always turn away to avoid allowing his enemy to get in front of him. Is it therefore a good idea to try and surround him with two parallel lines of destroyers?

Finally, perhaps the most important thing: you say you have to draw the enemy in close to make a torpedo attack count: generally, how close is close enough at various points in time?

Aside from all of that, I'd like to say thanks once again for the reply - I probably haven't learned so much from such a short post on these forums before. Have you ever considered writing, perhaps along with some of the other veteran players, a 'tactical guide?' Compared with strategic matters, tactics are hardly discussed at all on these forums, and I expect that lots of people could benefit from even an elementary discussion of them: things like the need to get ahead of the enemy to launch a successful torpedo attack, for example.

generalvikus - I'll be glad to try to elaborate so long as you understand I'm offering opinion, guided by experience, which may not hold true in all situations.

'Hold your line' is in reference to a battle in which you have a number of ships (capital or cruisers) steaming in a 'line ahead' formation. To damage him with gunnery, you need the enemy to be on one side of your line so that the maximum number of guns bear on him. For a torpedo attack you need to be ahead of his beam (midships) and as nearly in front as possible. Torpedoes travel a little faster than ships, so if you fire at a ship moving away your 'fish' might not catch it or be easily avoided.

Tactically, the AI thinks like a machine: if it is not clearly superior in strength it will withdraw or run, and if it is clearly superior it will pursue and try to close. Pursuit can be chancy: unless the pursuing force is a lot faster it can take a long time to close the range. All the while the retreating force will be banging away, hoping to score a hit to reduce the enemy's speed and threatening a wave of torpedoes to make the pursuers dodge or take damage. In general, pursuing an enemy will disorganize your force while holding it together may not give you enough speed to catch him. It can be very costly to expose a few ships to the concentrated fire of an enemy force... so, as a rule, I 'hold my line' together as a formation, however painful it may be to see the enemy steam away.

I have found that rushing headlong at the enemy may work early on but is a formula for suicide in later years. Forming up a line of battle and manuevering as though to hold the range open may tempt the AI into moving toward you to try to close for action. If so then you can draw him on and into range, pounding him with guns, damaging his ships and reducing his speeds, positioning his damaged and slowed ships so that your destroyer attack can quickly move on them. This can be quite tricky and does not always work as the AI has good skills and works very fast, but I'll give an example below. Your summation quoted above is almost exactly the script I used - tempt him, trick him, shoot him and then torpedo him, with one difference - I didn't draw him onto my battleline but past it. I agree with your point about destroyers, which is why I always build a lot (as Germany I had over 100 in commission at the time of the battle below, which was in the early 1940s). A lot were on sub duty (old DDs and some purpose-built 700-tonners) but I had 30-40 fleet-types present (6 or 8-4" or 6-5", 8 torpedo tubes, 34 knot speed).

Once your destroyers get within close range of enemy warships (capitals, cruisers and/or DDs) they will take damage, and once intermixed with the enemy it can be hard to get them to pull back to your line before they are wounded and sunk. The AI thinks and issues orders instantaneously - it knows when you signal a flotilla attack and may then instantly order a turn-away to open the range. After a turn or three, you can unclick the flotilla attack button (or directly order your flotillas back if needed), pulling back your DDs before they get too far toward the enemy ships (or sacrifice them to let your other ships get away, if that has to be). So... signal a flotilla attack, wait a few turns to see what the enemy does, and if he pulls back then cancel the attack... it can disorder his line and confuse his tactics, or even persuade him to withdraw.


Playing as Germany in a war with Russia, had a fleet action in the central Baltic. My cruisers and BCs spotted his cruisers and BCs, turning east across his line of advance to draw him south and east while my BBs (well to the west) turned north at 20 knots (slowest ship could make 21) . My goal was to somehow get my slower ships around him and across his line of retreat. My BCs moved east, SE and SW, then west, pounding his oncoming BCs and letting the range come slowly down. Then - to his surprise - he saw my battleline to his west, moving due north across his front (he was sailing WSW). His lead ships were then taking fire from the west and south. As he tried to run I turned my battleships NNE (still at 20 knots) and brought the BCs to the tail of my battleline (then past and ahead again, given their 8-knot faster speed). The AI continued to bring ships forward into the sack to support his wounded, then tried to turn to run as damage began to mount. His course to a friendly base had to be north but I was to his WNW, moving NE and now about even with his leading BB. As his ships took damage and slowed I launched a flotilla attack; most of his capital ships did not have enough speed to run but did have enough guns to cut up my DDs.

Final total losses: Russia lost 9 BC, 3 BB, 1 CL, 1 CA and 4 DD (of 12 BC and 4 to 6 BBs). Despite some harrowing moments, I lost 1 BC and (!) 12 DDs. The destroyer losses were painful, but I always build a lot... and I can trade a DD for a capital ship. That battle finished the Russians; they collapsed a few months later.


In terms of ground force tactics, what I did was to bait the enemy into charging in with superior numbers (12 BC to my 5 - AI will try to crush a weaker force), then brought up an unexpected force from the flank (AI tried to bring up slower ships to even the odds but just put more 'in the sack'), hit him with fire from two directions (AI tried to run) and finished off his cripples with melee (torpedo attack plus AI charged back in to try to get at my crippled BC; he sank it and lost at least 3 BC sinking 'Lutzow'). It's straight from the playbook of the great Belisarius and the early, brilliant Napoleon: defense to wear him down then assault his weakened force.  DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK in that you have to be patient to set it up, must be lucky to avoid crippling damage to a lot of ships (I had 2 BCs and 2 BBs pull out for damage and lost a third BC) and must always be aware of how the AI sees the situation. I was able to get the Russians to see what I wanted them to see and do what I wanted them to do - very difficult given the RtW AI - to lose their speed advantage and be outmanuevered by a slower force. If I sound proud of it, I am - it was a nice piece of work. I managed it only a couple of times in a game that ran to 1945.