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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 9, 2019 12:41:29 GMT -6
so with that aim in mind a few questions that probably have super obvious answers but which I have no idea about: what should I try to do? should I try to run parallel to the enemy so I can broadside him? One thing you've got to realize is that technology is constantly advancing, which also changes what tactics work and why. As an example, early game DDs have pitifully short-range and slow torpedoes. They also generally have very weak and inaccurate guns, so they don't even fight other DDs well. But in the very early game, guns are rather weak. Most battleships can't penetrate a main belt even at point-blank range and that's where the DD comes into play. Your battleships cripple an opposing battleship, then the DDs rush in to launch a killing blow of torpedoes.
Then technology advances twenty years. Suddenly (well, not suddenly) main guns can punch through armor in most cases. Each round that does can deliver devastating damage to a target. Torpedoes can reach out literal miles, hitting you at ranges your early game ships would consider beyond effective gunnery ranges. DD's mount guns equal to or in excess of early game cruisers.
But to directly answer, yes, you generally want to broadside your opponents. Also, remember that early game gunnery is extremely inaccurate, as it was historically.what speed should we run at? is there a "too fast?" and a "too slow?" Going fast holds little inherent value, it's what you do with that speed. If you're in the middle of the Atlantic with no ports nearby, by all means use the basic cruise speed. If you've got the enemy fleet outnumbered and he's running for port, running at max speed at an attempt to cut him off from safety would be prudent.assuming all my guns are working, is there any use to turning my ships facing the other way, or (assuming my guns all keep working) should I keep the same side pointed at the enemy? Under those assumptions, yes keep the same side at the enemy. Doing a 180 means several minutes of your ships effectively doing nothing, as no gunner in the early game is going to be able to lay a gun on target while the ship is performing a major maneuver.when I manage to get an enemy ship way out of the line of battle, and its all alone; what is the best way to sink it? should I circle it at close range? should I ram it? Like earlier, torpedoes are generally the killing blow for early game. Later on main guns become better at sinking ships, but so do torpedoes.is there a "rock, paper, scissors" to naval warfare; or should I match like with like? for example, should I send in my DD to sink his BB or take on his BB with my BB? It's a combination. As a basic example, you might want to cripple his BB with yours then send in the DDs to deliver the killing blow.how can I tell what his ship stats are; I know how to view what guns they have, but how can I tell what their sighting range is? For the most part, you can't, just as real naval commanders usually had to guess at the specifics of the enemies capabilities.
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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 9, 2019 13:00:50 GMT -6
You know, this makes me pause to consider- has anyone, ever, done a "Beginner's Guide to Battle", a true step-by-step illustration of a line engagement? I don't believe we have. Something like this?
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 9, 2019 13:02:29 GMT -6
One of the best things you can do is read up on the tactics that were standard doctrine in the period the game simulates, and also on how various battles played out and why commanders made the decisions they did.
But just a few very general pointers:
1) Unless some other consideration makes it impossible, you generally want to have as many of your guns bearing on the enemy as possible. You also will generally have some range band you want to keep within, which will vary according to the stage of the game you are in and the designs of your ships and the enemy ships. These together generally mean keeping the enemy on your broadside, though this won't always be the case for trying to maintain optimum range. For example, if the enemy is trying to disengage and you want to maintain contact, the situation will likely turn into a stern chase.
2) If you are within torpedo range of the enemy, you generally want to adjust your course every few turns, as a proactive defense against enemy torpedoes. So you want to be generally broadside-on in that situation, but not running straight parallel (or, in general, running in any perfectly straight line).
3) Ideally, if you can, you want to be broadside-on to the enemy without him being broadside-on to you. You want to run perpendicular to his course either ahead of him or behind him, so that only some of his guns bear while all of yours do. This is called "crossing the T". It's not always possible, but you should always be looking for opportunities to do it. Even if you can't pull it off, the threat of crossing the enemy's T can be used to force him to maneuver as you want.
To answer a few of your questions:
The best speed to run at is a matter of doctrinal preference, I'm not sure you'll get a lot of agreement from people here. I prefer to run at the best speed my battle line can make, if differences in speed between individual ships and battle damage permit, and to set my operating speed at ship design time rather than at battle time.
Switching broadsides will generally disadvantage you in the short term, but may be necessary or desirable in certain circumstances. You should generally do it as quickly as possible so as to have as few guns pointing away from the enemy as possible for as short a time as possible.
Tactics for dealing with an enemy ship that falls out of line depend on circumstances. In a stern chase, the situation will generally take care of itself: just follow the main formation, and each of your ships will use the straggler for target practice as they pass. In other situations, the options available to you will depend somewhat on the difficulty level you're playing at (which determines how much you can micromanage your fleet).
EDIT: I nearly forgot to add: sighting range is basically symmetrical between ships. The times at which actual sightings are made are somewhat randomized and not necessarily symmetrical (just because you're in view doesn't mean that a lookout happens to be looking in that direction), but either ship in a given pair *can* see the other at exactly the same time as the other can see it.
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Post by aeson on Apr 9, 2019 14:30:54 GMT -6
It should also be mentioned that there are some things that can be done outside of battle scenarios which affect how likely you are to win your battles. Running Enhanced Training programs (Gunnery training gives a bonus to gunnery accuracy, Torpedo training gives a bonus to torpedo accuracy and time to line up a shot, Night Fighting makes your ships a bit better in a night action),1 ensuring that your ships are promptly refitted with the best available fire control systems, keeping your ships in a high state of readiness (Active Fleet (AF) > Reserve Fleet (RF) >> Mothballs (MB)),1 keeping up - or, better, ahead - in research fields that passively improve your existing ships (AP Projectiles, Explosive Shells, and Torpedoes, as well as a lot of the techs in the Fire Control, Turrets and Gun Mountings, Subdivision and Damage Control, and Fleet Tactics lines), and taking advantage of certain events when offered (shooting competitions, expending ships as gunnery targets rather than selling them for scrap, reform options in corruption events2) can all give your ships an edge going into battle.
1It is also possible to gain an advantage from the money you saved through not running Enhanced Training programs or by keeping your fleet in a reduced state of readiness, because it means you had money available for something else - say, building a larger fleet, or perhaps upgrading base facilities to support a larger part of your fleet in regions where you might want to deploy it in wartime, such as Northeast and Southeast Asia for fighting Japan.
2This last isn't so much giving your ships an advantage going into battle as making it less likely for your ships to go into battle at a disadvantage.
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 9, 2019 14:31:50 GMT -6
whats the best place to find standard doctrines for the periods the game simulates? like I've had this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_tactics bookmarked for a week but never got around to read it; do I just go through that and the sources it used? or is there a website that is full of this stuff? (in just the past 5 or so days I've learned that navsource, navypedia, and navweaps exist; so there might be a website just for naval tactics!)
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 9, 2019 14:32:52 GMT -6
You know, this makes me pause to consider- has anyone, ever, done a "Beginner's Guide to Battle", a true step-by-step illustration of a line engagement? I don't believe we have. Something like this? (big but useful image) thats actually one of the few things I already knew my question related to that would be "how do I tell my destroyers to do this" especially when in admiral mode
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 9, 2019 14:36:27 GMT -6
also (sorry for triple posting) what does and does not the game take into account; like if I bring my ships to a dead stop, do they become easier to hit? does it become easier for me to hit things? if both my ship and my enemy is at a dead stop on a calm sea, are both our ships much easier to hit?
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Post by aeson on Apr 9, 2019 15:03:22 GMT -6
also (sorry for triple posting) what does and does not the game take into account; like if I bring my ships to a dead stop, do they become easier to hit? does it become easier for me to hit things? if both my ship and my enemy is at a dead stop on a calm sea, are both our ships much easier to hit? There are accuracy modifiers for sea condition (penalties for rough weather), target speed (I think absolute rather than relative, though I'm not positive), stability of the target's course, target aspect, range to target, and stability of your ship's course. I am not certain if your own ship's speed is taken into account - directly, at least.
So, yes, it is easier for you to hit your enemy and for your enemy to hit you when both you and they are at a dead stop in a calm sea than under virtually any other circumstance. It is likely, however, that there is a range of conditions under which the actual hit chance used by the game would be the same, or nearly the same, as when both you and your opponent are sitting at a dead stop in calm seas due to the granularity of the simulation. In Admiral's Mode, the most you can do to get your destroyers to head off the enemy is to use the Flotilla Attack order, found in the flag division's Status menu (right-click the square marker for the flag division in the main window, or go to the OOB tab, find your flag division in the list of division, right-click on it, and select Status) or in the force's Status menu (in the OOB tab, right-click the force's root entry, e.g. 'Italy', and select Status; this is also where you can order a Battle Turn Away, once you unlock that through Fleet Tactics research), at least until and unless you have a separate Scout Force. Once you have a separate Scout Force, you can try to run the Scout Force ahead of the enemy fleet and then use its flag division's Status menu to order the Scout Force's destroyers to launch a flotilla attack, which will presumably be somewhere ahead of the enemy fleet.
In Rear Admiral's Mode, you also can take control of individual divisions to try to get them into position (note that any divisions under AI control which are set to follow that division should come along) and send them into an attack without necessarily ordering a fleet-wide Flotilla Attack using the flag divison's Status menu.
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Post by bcoopactual on Apr 10, 2019 8:07:07 GMT -6
so with that aim in mind a few questions that probably have super obvious answers but which I have no idea about: what should I try to do? should I try to run parallel to the enemy so I can broadside him? JagdFlanker designs his ships a little faster than I do but he's right about speed. It's very helpful to be at least as fast as the AI's ships. He also makes an excellent point of putting at least one torpedo on your battleships and armored cruisers so you can see the torpedo range circle (advice aeson 's also given to me in the past). Just keep in mind that from about the middle of the game on, the enemy could have better torpedoes and so his effective range is actually greater than the circle that surrounds your ships. There is no way for you to be sure so keep a cushion outside of your own torpedo range circle. Like garrisonchisholm pointed out, early battles are very, very rarely going to be decisive. As was also posted earlier, if you are in a fleet battle try to get between the enemy and their closest home port and then run parallel to them just outside of torpedo range and pound them until one or more of their ships falls out. Then when you have it cut off from the rest you can adjust tactics based on the wounded enemy's speed. If it is still steaming above 10 knots then what I like to do is follow behind it and cut across its wake back and forth. Effectively making multiple "crossing the T" maneuvers, you are just doing it behind the ship instead of in front of it. Stay away from the broadsides if you can because that is generally where the majority of the ship's firepower can be brought to bear against you. If the ship is moving at less than 5 knots just circle it and fire on it until it goes fully motionless. You don't ever want to just stop. You become easier to hit and also a torpedo magnet. Pound it for another few minutes (keeping an eye out that the AI hasn't circled his fleet back around to re-engage) to make sure it is actually sinking and then turn to see if you can track down any more stragglers. For one on one cruiser action types they are usually a stern chase one way or the other. Again, if I can get the speed advantage I'll follow and criss-cross the enemy's wake to minimize my exposure to the enemy's broadside where the majority of his firepower is. That's usually where early ships mount their submerged torpedo tubes as well but be wary that ships can have fore and aft tubes as well. If I'm the one running, I'll usually try to run towards the east if I can and it's near sunset so I can use the darkness to disengage. Otherwise I try to minimize turns that slow me down unless the enemy starts getting hits and then I'll make a 30-45 degree turn to screw up his fire control solution. An important point for fleet actions is your ordered speed. You generally want to steam your lead division at 1-2 knots below your slowest battleship's maximum speed (not counting injured stragglers that you had to detach and send home). That way the follow-on divisions will be more able to keep on station behind the lead division. [The one to two knot below maximum speed was actual standard doctrine of the Grand Fleet.] If you move at maximum speed then every time you change the lead division's track the follow-on divisions will get further and further behind because they will not be able to make the same precise turns and they won't have that 1 or 2 knot margin to catch up and regain station. You will lose your line's cohesion faster than it is going to happen anyway (communications sucks in the beginning of the game. You get numerous "misunderstood signals" events and such early in the game. That goes to what JagdFlanker also posted about putting Fleet Tactics in high priority. There are techs that reduce those kinds of snafus.) Your ammunition state and the number of secondary guns you've lost will usually determine whether you really "need" to get on the other side and use your other broadside guns. If the guns on one side are running out of ammo or you've lost several to battle damage then you should definitely attempt to switch to the other side. Stay out of torpedo range. Ramming is rare (the ships are actually smaller than the sprites used in-game so just because two sprites touch doesn't mean the ships collided) and you are just asking for a torpedo in the gut. It was mentioned already but your destroyers aren't good at torpedo attacks early in the game. However, attacking a motionless ship is something they can usually accomplish if you set them for flotilla attack. Otherwise just circle or comb the enemy's wake until they stop moving and then keep hitting them to make sure they didn't just suffer a critical hit and will be able to restore propulsion. Not really. If you have the money you can build a battleship that is as fast as a battlecruiser, with heavy guns and armor and plenty of secondary guns, all with director control capable of quickly sinking any destroyer that even thinks about getting too close. So this is more like real life and not a RTS or arcade game like WoWS. The balance comes from the tremendous size and cost to build those superships. And if you are playing a small nation facing off against the UK with a massive budget, well, life is sometimes not fair, lol. Luckily, most capital ships are going to have tradeoffs somewhere so if they have a weak secondary, then maybe a destroyer swarm will work. The AI however, to my recollection, rarely builds capital ships without strong secondary or tertiary batteries. Even better, that megaship master-of-all-trades battleship still can't see in the dark (no radar in RTW1) so it can still be taken down by torpedoes launched at close range before its gunners have a chance to react. Not that there aren't other strategies you can try against a larger nation like trade warfare. Players on the forum have used several different strategies will success. Generally their sighting range is the same as yours because it's based on the weather and time of day which applies to both sides equally. Some things that might affect sighting range that would advantage one side instead of both is if one side has a superior crew quality. Also in good visibility during the day, coal powered ships can be seen from further away because they produce more smoke (which can be seen over the horizon) than oil fueled ships. At night if one nation has chosen to emphasize Night Fighting then their crews should have an advantage in sighting range and reaction time at night. Also ships on fire can be seen further away at night. Not sure, I've never tried it.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Apr 10, 2019 8:39:49 GMT -6
Not sure, I've never tried it. doesn't work - flagship reverts back to player control after a few ticks
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Post by aeson on Apr 10, 2019 8:42:21 GMT -6
doesn't work - flagship reverts back to player control after a few ticks You can, however, set a division other than the flag division to 'Independent' and have everything follow that instead of the flagship. I don't think it's a particularly good idea, but it can be done.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Apr 10, 2019 13:25:05 GMT -6
doesn't work - flagship reverts back to player control after a few ticks You can, however, set a division other than the flag division to 'Independent' and have everything follow that instead of the flagship. I don't think it's a particularly good idea, but it can be done. interesting, never thought of that. i can think of a couple situations where it'd be 'worth a shot', like when my flag div get hammered early and has to withdraw...
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Post by vonfriedman on Apr 11, 2019 12:33:18 GMT -6
I have always felt that in an artillery duel between ships of that era it was advantageous to sail on the leeward side of the enemy. In other words to make the wind blow the smoke away from our own line of sight. Even the position of the sun in the hours near sunrise or sunset were important, although difficult to exploit. At the beginning of the battle of Coronel the profile of the German ships was clearly visible as long as the setting sun was above the horizon, only to merge with the growing darkness shortly after.
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Post by thenewteddy on Apr 11, 2019 17:35:26 GMT -6
wait; how can I check the ammo levels of individual guns?
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Post by aeson on Apr 11, 2019 18:59:31 GMT -6
wait; how can I check the ammo levels of individual guns? You can't, unless you're using individually-mounted main battery guns.
You can see ammunition state for a particular main battery turret - and for the main battery as a whole - by opening the ship status screen in combat (right-click on the ship icon in the main window; right click on a division flag in the main window and double click on a ship name in the division menu; go to the OOB tab, expand the lists until you find the ship you want, right-click on it, and select Status). You can also see the overall ammunition state for the secondary and tertiary batteries, but not for individual secondary or tertiary turrets or guns. The numbers are: AP shells remaining / HE shells remaining / SAP shells remaining (percentage of nominal ammunition load remaining).
The number in parenthesis after each of the torpedo mounts (in this case, the two submerged tubes) indicates whether or not there are torpedoes in the tubes; submerged tubes can in theory be reloaded a couple of times whereas above-water swivel-mounted tubes are one-shot weapons.
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