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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 9:20:51 GMT -6
What is the best way to counter a torpedo attack?
It has been a frustrating experience for me as I sortie the fleet out to sea, finally encounter the enemy main force, pound them to gain the upper hand and... they start running while sending the torpedo DDs my way. At the same time dawn approaches to render sight ranges really small so torpedo hazard increases even more. Usually 1 hit is sufficient to render one of my BBs combat ineffective and I need to detach it. 2 or more hits probably means a sunk capital ship.
I understand it is historically correct as it was a real problem the commanders faced at that time. But now that we have this problem how do we deal with it? The tactics I've been trying: 1 is constant maneuvering. Each game turn I order a course change of about 90 degrees. It has been proven most effective in dodging torpedoes but the downside is, it is hard to keep the fleet formation intact. Usually the supporting DDs and CLs end up way behind due to the constant turning and the units lose mutual support. 2 is head directly towards the threat. If the enemy DDs charge at me, I head straight at them to minimize my cross section. Doesn't always work though, for there most definitely will be another group of DDs from another direction attacking. By heading straight and level you're an easy target for a second attacker. 3 is just disengage. Yeah tried that as it's the most realistic way I suppose, but by disengaging any chance of sinking the enemy capital ships is missed, like 10 heavily damaged BBs, 4 damaged BCs, none sunk. They'll repair and come back to haunt me later... 4, if weather and time of day permits, engage enemy at range. This is the most easy one but apparently not always possible.
Wonder if I should try captain's mode so I'm able to control each squadron individually? I find the AI doesn't always make the best maneuver at times especially when lead division executes sharp turns. However I always fear it might turn into a click-fest..
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Post by randomizer on Jun 16, 2014 10:56:01 GMT -6
It sounds like you're already dealing with the problem. The issue as presented in SAI is a pretty solid re-creation of the actual situation and there was never a one-size-fits-all or even tactically satisfactory solution. The torpedo problem faced by the Grand Fleet at Jutland in May 1916 was exactly the same as that faced by VAdm Kurita at Samar in October 1944, a period that encompasses the nominal dominance of the big-gunned battleship at war.
Although SAI models gunnery quite well the fact is that the most effective ship-killing weapon in the game is the torpedo (and of course the target ships' own ammunition).
As the British, you have bigger destroyers mounting, for the most part a more powerful gun armament than those possessed by the German's. If it appears that there is a torpedo attack forming up the prudent move is to open the battle ranges and use the Flotilla Attack command to launch your destroyers at the enemy. British DD's should have an advantage in the subsequent fight provided they have at least numerical parity. The problem with this approach is that once the gunnery range has opened it is often impossible to manoeuvre back into an effective gunnery position and it's likely that an opportunity for a decisive action has passed.
Jellicoe and Scheer both knew this. DD captain's knew it as well and so it was very unusual for DD's to launch all of their torpedoes in a single salvo and a few would inevitably be reserved. This happens in SAI and you can seldom be sure how many torpedoes or if there are any at all speeding invisibly for your battle line. The AI destroyers may charge your line but launch none of their valuable torpedoes and you may be fleeing from ghosts but how lucky do you feel at the time?
Turn away increases the range but decreases the closure rate and lowers the hit probability significantly.
Turn towards decreases the range but increases the closure rate making it far more difficult for your SAI ship captains to evade effectively.
Royal Navy analysts determined that the hit probability against a battle line maintaining a steady course and speed could approach .40 (40%) and while the actual number was probably lower it was still high enough to be decisive. Losing a battleship to a destroyer was a colossally bad bargain politically, materially, tactically and in SAI. For this reason, night belongs to the destroyer and night actions involving capital ships should be avoided whenever possible.
Sorry I cannot help solve your because the problem itself is and was unsolvable but you have identified four countermeasures all of which have utility in different situations. Our real life data base for major gun/torpedo actions is very small and much remains theoretical but I suspect that SAI simulates the situation accurately enough that some experimentation can yield useful results.
As for adopting Captain's difficulty and micromanaging your divisions, that's certainly an option. My personal preference is Rear Admiral difficulty so that I can better arrange my flotillas in anticipation of employing the Flotilla Attack command under friendly AI control.
Good Luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 12:43:13 GMT -6
Randomizer,
Thanks for the insightful feedback (as always far as I can read!). You probably summed it up best that "night belongs to the destroyer and night actions involving capital ships should be avoided whenever possible." It certainly requires discipline to detach from the impending prey and choose to disengage from a battle when the curtains fall, as I shall find out next time in that tactical situation!
As a new comer to the naval scene I can't judge how well SAI models this part of the action, far as I can tell it's all very authentic and enjoyable. My last battle involved dragging the enemy BBs to my emergency activated battle line with my 3 BCs and wrecked havoc on the grand fleet, so it's been a very satisfactory experience for me so far indeed!
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paul
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Post by paul on Jun 19, 2014 22:51:50 GMT -6
In the early stages of playing the game, the temptation for night-time close firing on crippled opposition is oh so tempting, but it is always more painful than it is worth. Especially painful in campaigns when you get a BB sunk but theirs make it home. However, you will find that crippling their capitals is still useful as it keeps them out of action. Bear in mind that the computer player still has to achieve objectives so you may find it recklessly sending out 4-ship groups of BBs in the weeks after a big battle, which can be juicy targets for a BC group with superior BBs behind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 8:20:31 GMT -6
Makes good sense Paul. The AI seems to sortie their Bs, CAs and low crew rating BBs in scarce numbers against my larger fleet force sometimes. By sending their ships to the yard future favorable tactical situations are created. However! All good in principle.... I'm at turn 30, 03/15/1915. I've had 4 major fleet v fleet engagements. 3 of them are at night/bad weather, only 1 is in good visibility, and finding myself unable to disengage. I mean emotionally. I mean after all the work you've put in and numerous times where the fleets miss by inches, all the hours searching in vain for the opfor in the north sea in circles, the 2 fleets finally meet face to face. And you have to run away from it. NO. I'm gonna find another way to deal with this...
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Post by randomizer on Jun 20, 2014 9:53:42 GMT -6
This may provide you with a very small insight into Beattie's experience, spending over four years most of it marking time at anchor or chasing ghosts in the North Sea. Unable to score the decisive win that everybody expected and finally having the war end without any real input from you or your fleet.
That said however, the opposition can vary significantly based upon the degree of difficulty chosen. From the Campaign Manual:
This does not mean that the AI knows specifically what you have activated only that there is frequently a co-relation between the force levels that you sortie and those that the AI will sortie in response. There is considerable variation built into this and every turn is likely to play out differently even if re-played. However, the AI trains, suffers operational attrition and damage and in a general way is constricted with limited OP like the Player is.
The inability to force a decisive action is exactly what actually happened. The North Sea became a no-man's-land where the mine, submarines and light forces dominated and where dreadnoughts feared to sail. The political cost of losing even one to mine or torpedo was unacceptable as these were the instruments of an inferior naval power but in the public mind the Navy remained all about the battleship. After Jutland the Grand Fleet's powerful Battle Squadrons virtually never sortied south of N56* latitude (roughly Edinburgh) while the Kaiser's big ships rarely left the security of the HSF's extensive defensive mine barriers. You can see a similar effect in the game as the Campaign unfolds although the British Player gets to oppose an AI that was far more aggressive than is perhaps realistic. It had to be to make a game of the situation.
Be grateful that the submarine in SAI is far less effective by design than its real-life counterparts were in the event. Scheer knew first hand that there would always be British boats waiting for his fleet and had the damage to prove it. No capital ships were actually lost to the submarine in the North Sea during WW1 but then both Fleets took great pains to avoid situations where the submarine might operate to advantage, even to the extent of remaining in port.
I do not think that Jellicoe was ever able to fully accept that his battleships had ceased to be the weapon of decision in the naval war but I suspect that Beattie certainly did. Desperate to keep the Grand Fleet relevant, Sir John held on to his flotillas as escorts for the battle squadrons thus preventing them from the protection of merchant shipping until the end of his command tenure and then forbade detaching them while he was First Sea Lord. In SAI this is reflected in the greatly increased requirement for ASW destroyers later in the Campaign but in the game the ASW requirement is based upon the historical timeline and so is fixed. Jellicoe had had the support of First Lord Sir Edward Carson but in July 1917, Carson was out and his replacement, Sir Eric Geddes increasingly marginalized Sir John J. publicly and privately and the flow of DD's from the Grand Fleet towards convoy escort duties commenced over Jellicoe's vocal protests. Once in command and given a relatively free hand by Jellicoe's replacement Sir Rosslyn Wemyss, Beattie ruthlessly stripped the Grand Fleet of escorting flotillas and then when Scheer sortied as far north as Stavanger in April 1918, the British were actually short of destroyers for screening duties but Beattie took the Fleet to sea anyway. However, as there was no surface action and the U-Boats were mostly involved in the tonnage war, no harm came from this. The SAI scenario "The Last Sortie" models this situation to some extent but the British DD forces are probably too strong and for Scheer, the nasty little conclusion to the sortie was when HMS/M E-42 put a torpedo into the already damaged Moltke as the latter limped back to base.
Good Luck with finding a definitive solution to the problem that does not involve using gamey exploits.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 11:29:02 GMT -6
Randomizer,
There couldn't be a "magic bullet" to this problem I reckon. So far I find that night battles are tricky and very intolerable to mistakes. You keep the BBs running in a straight line for 2 turns and they're bound to get torped. Gotta keep fouling the other guy's gunnery solution, just only in the 2D scale instead of 3D so maneuver options are more limited. More importantly, once a capital ship is hit by a torp gotta detach it and send it home. I find that 2 torpedo hits + a few gun hits is enough to sink one BB. In a rolling night battle one never know what is coming next so better be safe. Also, WATCH YOUR OWN TORPEDOES!! So far my blue on blue torpedo count is regrettably about 10.... Lastly, treat the enemy destroyers more seriously. If one can be sunk do it. This can seriously whittle down their DD force and ends up AI sortieing capital ships naked.
Apparently it took me a while to realize the limitations of the big gun ships but, come to think of it of course... in the sense of modern thinking war is not won by any single wonder weapon but a combination/fusion of different systems (well and obviously the ppl operating them) so I guess same should be applied to a computer game sandbox. Still in the way of finding best different use of the various vessels in SAI, hopefully I'm on the right track.
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Post by randomizer on Jun 20, 2014 12:22:56 GMT -6
It seems like you have sound concepts and have learned from your experiences.
I am currently playing the Royal Navy in Turn-34 of the Grand North Sea Campaign. Back in September 1914 I managed to sink two Oldenberg's in a nasty little fleet action but had four Dreadnought torpedoed in the process. None sank but getting them home and the onset of darkness prevented my from dealing the killing blow to the HSF, very frustrating but also very reasonable in my opinion. This was after the HSF appeared in the channel and massacred my patrolling armoured cruisers there.
Since then I have been living off the accumulated VP from this action but am also gunning for the German scout cruisers, of which I have sunk eight (two by mines) losing only two modern CL's in reply. My big ships mostly remain in port and generally only sail in response to an Emergency Activation but every weekly turn sees light forces at sea and either an offensive or defensive mining operation conducted. I attempt to maintain 700+ OP every during the periods of long daylight with varying degrees of success but that's the grand strategic goal.
On several occasions, light forces have clashed and I have generally come out well from these actions. It's nice when you can see that the AI failed to meet its objectives but less nice when a warship or even a merchant runs into a freshly laid mine. My naval war to date, weekly turns and Hard difficulty.
Ship Fate Date
DD T35 Torpedoed by SS D7 8/12/1914 CL Hela Gunfire.(CL Nottingham, CL Southampton, CL Birmingham, ) 8/28/1914 DD T33 Gunfire.(DD Phoenix, DD Lapwing, ) 8/28/1914 DD T31 Gunfire.(CL Southampton, ) 8/28/1914 DD T25 Gunfire.(CL Southampton, CL Nottingham, CL Lowestoft, ) 8/28/1914 BB Ostfriesland Gunfire and torpedoes.(BB Orion, BB Centurion, BB King George V, BB Monarch, BC Queen Mary, ) 9/9/1914 DD G175 Gunfire.(CL Birmingham, DD Ariel, DD Acheron, ) 9/9/1914 DD V162 Gunfire.(CL Birmingham, DD Hornet, ) 9/9/1914 BB Helgoland Gunfire.(BB Monarch, BB Ajax, BB Centurion, BB Audacious, CA Antrim, BB King George V, BC New Zealand, BC Queen Mary, BC Princess Royal, BB Thunderer, BC Invincible, ) 9/9/1914 DD V164 Gunfire.(DD Christopher, DD Linnet, DD Laverock, DD Llewellyn, DD Laertes, DD Lance, ) 9/9/1914 CL Strassburg Gunfire.(CA Roxburgh, CA Argyll, CA Antrim, ) 10/1/1914 SS U-16 Failed to return 12/24/1914 MS Liselotte Gunfire.(DD Landrail, DD Lysander, ) 12/25/1914 MS Spica Gunfire.(CL Undaunted, DD Lydiard, ) 12/25/1914 MS Rastede Gunfire.(DD Lydiard, CL Fearless, CL Undaunted, ) 12/25/1914 SS U-32 Sunk by DD Derwent 12/25/1914 SS U-18 Failed to return 12/27/1914 CL Graudenz Mined. 12/31/1914 CL Rostock Mined. 1/17/1915 SSC U-9 Failed to return 1/23/1915 CA Roon Mined. 2/16/1915 CL München Gunfire and mines.(CL Fearless, DD Lawford, CL Arethusa, DD Laverock, DD Laurel, DD Lark, DD Llewellyn, ) 2/22/1915 DD G10 Gunfire.(BB Marlborough, BB Hercules, BB Vanguard, ) 2/22/1915 CL Mainz Gunfire.(BB Benbow, BB Collingwood, BB Vanguard, CA Shannon, ) 2/23/1915 CL Kolberg Gunfire and torpedoes.(BB Collingwood, CA Shannon, BB St Vincent, DD Nymphe, BB Benbow, BB Colossus, BC Princess Royal, CA Drake, BC Australia, BC Lion, CL Gloucester, CL Liverpool, ) 2/23/1915
MS Filey Torpedoed by SS U-14 8/21/1914 TR Inverlyon Boarded and scuttled by CL Strassburg 8/27/1914 CL Southampton Torpedoed by DD T25 8/28/1914 CA Sutlej Gunfire.(BB Helgoland, BB Westfalen, BB Ostfriesland, BB Oldenburg, ) 9/2/1914 CA Hogue Gunfire.(BB Nassau, BB Rheinland, BB Ostfriesland, BB Posen, ) 9/2/1914 CA Bacchante Gunfire.(BB Ostfriesland, BB Westfalen, BB Helgoland, BB Oldenburg, BB Thüringen, ) 9/2/1914 CA Aboukir Gunfire and torpedoes.(BB Westfalen, BB Helgoland, BB Thüringen, BB Rheinland, BB Ostfriesland, BB Posen, BB Oldenburg, ) 9/2/1914 DD Lyra Gunfire.(BB Helgoland, BB Thüringen, BB Ostfriesland, BB Oldenburg, ) 9/2/1914 CA Achilles Torpedoed by DD S176 9/2/1914 DD Oak Gunfire.(BB Ostfriesland, BB Helgoland, ) 9/9/1914 CA Devonshire Torpedoed by DD G37 9/9/1914 MS Chester II Gunfire.(BC Seydlitz, BC von der Tann, ) 9/10/1914 MS Pelagia Gunfire.(BC Derfflinger, BC Moltke, ) 9/10/1914 DD Acheron Mined. 9/24/1914 SS E2 Failed to return 10/23/1914 DD Redpole Mined 10/27/1914 Heugh Battery Gunfire.(BC Derfflinger, BC Moltke, BC Seydlitz, ) 11/13/1914 Hartlepool Gunfire.(CL Cöln, CL Kolberg, BC von der Tann, BC Moltke, CL Stralsund, ) 11/13/1914 DD Moy Gunfire.(CL Stralsund, ) 11/13/1914 DD Hydra Torpedoed by DD Lurcher 11/15/1914 DD Lurcher Gunfire.(BC Seydlitz, BC von der Tann, ) 11/15/1914 AMC Alcantara Mined 12/17/1914 AMC Almanzora Torpedo 12/17/1914 SS D8 Sunk by DD T49 12/27/1914 DD Louis Gunfire and torpedoes.(BC Moltke, BC Derfflinger, BC Seydlitz, ) 1/10/1915 DD Lennox Gunfire.(CL Stralsund, BC Seydlitz, BC Moltke, CL Cöln, BC Derfflinger, ) 1/10/1915 SS D1 Rammed by MS Makrele 1/17/1915 TR Baron Erskine Gunfire.(CL Kolberg, ) 1/30/1915 SS D4 Rammed by DD V191 2/8/1915 AMC Avoca Mined 2/15/1915 SSC C5 Mined 2/18/1915 CL Penelope Mined. 2/22/1915 TR Downshire Gunfire.(CL München, ) 2/22/1915 DD Legion Mined. 2/22/1915 DD Larne Gunfire.(BC von der Tann, ) 2/22/1915 Sunderland Battery Gunfire.(BC von der Tann, CA Blücher, ) 2/23/1915 DD Druid Gunfire.(CL Stralsund, CL Pillau, ) 2/23/1915 DD Goshawk Gunfire.(BC Derfflinger, CL Pillau, ) 2/23/1915 TR Oriole Mined. 3/2/1915 TR Welbury Mined. 3/11/1915 DD Viking Mined. 3/19/1915 SSC C1 Failed to return 3/20/1915
This turn (31 March 1915 Turn-34) is still in the planning stages and Intelligence has announced a German operation with no other info except the Seydlitz is in dockyard hands for 10(!) weeks. I have a BC-Reach objective for 1500 points but it's off the Frisian Islands and I do not care to go that far out. Last time I sortied most of the Fleet to preempt an enemy operation, examination of the track charts at turn's end revealed that the AI only sailed a couple of pre-dreadnoughts that patrolled around Horn's Reef and I came nowhere near them. This time I am considering sending 1st and 4th Battle Squadrons and all seven available battlecruisers out to support a mining sortie by the Harwich Force. Ignore whatever the German's have planned and try to catch them on the way home.
Tons of fun...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 13:31:13 GMT -6
My big ships mostly remain in port and generally only sail in response to an Emergency Activation but every weekly turn sees light forces at sea and either an offensive or defensive mining operation conducted. I attempt to maintain 700+ OP every during the periods of long daylight with varying degrees of success but that's the grand strategic goal. .... Ignore whatever the German's have planned and try to catch them on the way home. Interesting strategy compared to the germans! I think the germans NEED to damage or sink the brit capital ships to not suffer a VP penalty. Whilst the brits can just keep battleship/cruisers at bay and attrit the german light forces to enjoy a steady VP flow while the constant influx of capital ship reinforcements keep the dreadnought ratio bigger than 1... By reading your posts I've learnt the brits have better destroyer designs. Seems to me they've better CLs as well for my CLs in the german campaign have only 4in guns. I've tried not sortieing them separately, and as luck woulda have it the only 2 times they went out alone they went into enemy BCs and barely escaped... gonna try the British side of the campaign after this one, should be a different experience!
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Post by fredsanford on Jun 20, 2014 13:38:51 GMT -6
At night, my immediate actions on contact are to (a) order a flotilla attack, and (b) immediate simultaneous turn away by the lead heavy ships.
Also, consider changing DD divs from "support" to "screen" at dusk. DD's on "support" will lag behind the supported division at night, and this is a time when you really want to make contact with your smallest ships whenever possible. DD/CL divs on screen will tend to have ships lose contact at night though. A way to protect your van with light ships while minimizing the potential disorder is to use a DD flotilla with a CL leader. Put the CL on "screen" and it will lead your van. Put the DD Div's on "support" with the CL as the lead division. The DD's will lag behind the CL, but more-or-less abreast of the lead heavy ships. They will also default to line ahead formation, and that is easier to maintain at night. As above, on contact turn away simultaneously with your heavy units. At the same time, put the screening CL on "independent", and order a flotilla attack. Let the DD flotilla fight the night battle.
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Post by randomizer on Jun 20, 2014 14:11:33 GMT -6
Wise words to live by...
I am generally quite content to let the friendly AI fight my flotillas against the enemy AI in night actions.
It's important to recall that sometimes at night you may never actually even see the torpedo craft flotilla/division that has launched a salvo of torpedoes against your battle line.
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Post by fredsanford on Jun 20, 2014 15:12:06 GMT -6
During the day, it also pays to have DD flotillas forward with the scouts as well. Keep some smallish (3-4 ships) DD divs on support/screen for the heavies, but I put DD's supporting scouting units all the time. I'm not shy about ordering a flotilla attack at the start of an engagement, either. This is true when I play either side. Even if the flotilla attack torpedoes nothing, it tends to scramble the enemy's formation while your battle line maneuvers into a favorable firing position. Another important effect is that it keeps the destroyer scrum away from your line, and near to his. Having the DD's out front as soon as possible helps to keep enemy DD's from getting into a position ahead of your line's path.
e-life is cheap in my DD fleet. I treat them as disposable assets (especially as the British) that bears the brunt of the fighting, while the battle fleet is for administering the coup de grace.
None of this applies to RJW DD's.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 18:06:09 GMT -6
Nice advice about the night battle fred! Definitely gonna give it a try. 2 questions. 1 is once you put the CL divisions on independent do you assume manual control or let the AI handle it? If manual I think they'd switch back to AI control once out of sight range which is really small at night. If AI control, actually.... what does the AI do when the division is independent? 2 Can you elaborate more about this one.. During the day, it also pays to have DD flotillas forward with the scouts as well. Keep some smallish (3-4 ships) DD divs on support/screen for the heavies, but I put DD's supporting scouting units all the time. I'm not shy about ordering a flotilla attack at the start of an engagement, either. This is true when I play either side. Even if the flotilla attack torpedoes nothing, it tends to scramble the enemy's formation while your battle line maneuvers into a favorable firing position. Another important effect is that it keeps the destroyer scrum away from your line, and near to his. Having the DD's out front as soon as possible helps to keep enemy DD's from getting into a position ahead of your line's path. e-life is cheap in my DD fleet. I treat them as disposable assets (especially as the British) that bears the brunt of the fighting, while the battle fleet is for administering the coup de grace. None of this applies to RJW DD's. As I understand: right so we have 1 division of CLs on scout. Then DD divisions assigned to support the CLs, but how many DDs, just one division or multiple? Coz I'm thinking if a flotilla attack is ordered and there's only 1 DD division way up front, they'll charge the enemy line by just the few of them so won't they get pummeled?
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Post by fredsanford on Jun 20, 2014 19:33:06 GMT -6
1. Playing on Admiral mode, so the CL is AI controlled. It's not always predictable what the CL will specifically do. But, it won't try to follow your heavies as they turn away. Since it's the lead for several DD divs, I want those ships to move to attack while the large ships get away. If the contact is with an enemy DD force, the CL will tend to be more aggressive and can dominate DD's with gunfire at close range. If I also have a CL squadron that's available, then I may assign it to the CL on "support" orders to help shoot up DD's. If the enemy force encountered shows heavy units in the mix, the CL will tend to try to break contact, but will "drag" the supporting DD's behind it, and can most likely get some torpedoes launched. 2. Multiple divisions. For example, if I'm playing the British, I'll use the 2nd DD flotilla assigned to scout and attached to the lead BB div, and have the two very large 1/2 and 2/2 flotillas as support for the CL. That's 20 DD's right there. There's other DD flotillas that have CL leaders, and you can always attach DDs to the scouting CL squadrons as well. It's not a bad idea to have a similar CL w/ DDs group on the rearmost core division as well. That way you'll have concentrations of DD's at both ends of you lines, and the flotilla attack will (hopefully) go in in multiple directions. The core BB divs can have smaller DD divs supporting each- at about a 1 DD: 1 BB ratio, but whether you're playing Germans or British you should have excess DDs available.
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Post by fredsanford on Jun 20, 2014 19:40:33 GMT -6
Oh, and get ready for some crazy long repair queues for DD's. Poor little fellas get tore up in my navy. I've had DD's damaged in 1916 not ever get repaired b/c the queue gets so long I have to drop the long-repair time DDs to the bottom of the queue. Late in the war, the British have so many DD's that the 8 repair capacity can barely keep up with periodic maintenance, let alone repair large numbers of battle damaged DD's. Don't even get me started on #*$*#*#@%! hurricanes.
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