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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 15:26:48 GMT -6
Hi, I think that this can be a useful thread. Post anything useful, or correct mistakes or add pictures.
My first tip is:
I like that early heavy armoured cruisers with >4 main battery guns, those ships like Scharnhorst (IRL) can be quite usefull.
So I recommend building them with at least 23kts top speed. It is quite interesting that those ships are the best ships for CVL rebuild. If you really push it to the limit, you can rebuild them to have 27 or 28kts top speed with oil firing and as much as 20 aircrafts aboard.
For example my armoured cruiser Chanzy was designed with 8x 10in guns in Scharnhorst (IRL) scheme, 23kts top speed, 5in belt armour, 1,5 deck armour and 14 300 tons displacement. It proved itself as effective CA killer, when it was commisioned it 1905 its speed allowed it to be a CL killer as well. Its strong armament and decent armour allowed it to be an Austio-Hungarian micro-B killer.
In small battles, this ship and its sister ship killed about 10 Italian and Austrio-Hungarian armoured cruisers, about the same number of protected cruisers, 3 micro-Bs, 2 Italian regular Bs, and many DDs which were foolish enough to try to get close to that ship. Unfortunately in one fleet battle with Italy in 1915 the Chanzy´s sister ship in a scout fleet got too close to Italian battle line and was blown up by the first salvo of the newest Italian dreadnought, but that was not caused by any design flaw.
After the technology advance allowed me to create my first CVL conversions, my fleet had just a few ships suitable for conversion. I have found out quickly that CL is not a good choice for rebuild, so I used by bigger class of seaplane carriers (5500 tons) for a heavy rebuild. The result was not good, but who am I to judge the world´s first aircraft carrier. Whole class of 4 ships was converted into carrier with capacity of just 10 planes and top speed 27kts with new oil firing engines. Not that bad for a start, I mean that it can keep up with CLs and BCs, but it has almost no planes, which is not a good feature for an aircraft carrier. Good thing is that these carriers have 4x5in guns (+1 quality) in position 1, 2, 3 and 4, giving it good chasing armament with director FC, but I would not like to use that, because the ship has no armour. By the way, I think that this would be IRL the smallest and lightest aircraft carrier ever.
After just a month I´ve choosed to rebuild the second biggest CA in the fleet, Dupleix, last of its class of 13 800 tons big CAs with 4x10in guns, thick armour and decent speed of 23kts. When I removed those 4 guns in heavily armoured turrets, I´ve found out that I have s***loads of free space. So I choosed to place 14 planes aboard, together with four 4in guns (+1 as well) and 22 light AAs. With new engines the top speed is now 27kts, which is just fine. Ship is heavily armoured, with 5,5 belt armour, 1,5 deck armour and a bit protected main turrets, this is my most durable carrier.
But all those ships had IMHO too few airplanes, so I decided to rebuild and convert my biggest ship under 16 000 tons, my excelent Chanzy. When I removed main and secondary battery, the ship had thousands of tons empty, so with new engines, this ship can go as fast as 28kts, which is even faster than any of my BCs from that time. It can also fit 18 planes, almost as much as early airfield. This ship is literally faster than anything what can penetrate its 5in belt armour in 1920. It has 4x4in protected (2,5in of T and 1in of TT) main battery, and unprotected 4x3in secondary battery. (yeah, I know that its a mistake that it has secondaries instead of LAA, but whatever...)
Edit: about the question of conversion cost, converting AVs is almost free, it takes just 11 months and eats just 111 each month. Converting CAs takes at least 18 months and eats at least 2 500 each month, but as long as you cant build purpose build carriers, its better than nothing.
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Post by garychildress on May 21, 2019 20:17:58 GMT -6
I always did well in RTW1 with ships that have superior speed. I haven't fought enough in RTW2 yet to determine whether or not that still holds. With superior speed, I get to choose whether I will fight or not, depending upon the strength or else weakness of the enemy. So I usually design my ships accordingly, sacrificing a little armor and firepower here and there but if I can catch a weaker opponent in a battle, then it pays off.
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Post by ramjb on May 21, 2019 20:51:21 GMT -6
I always did well in RTW1 with ships that have superior speed. I haven't fought enough in RTW2 yet to determine whether or not that still holds. Early game it does to a point (an unlucky hit can still send splinters flying through your funnels and cut your sprint short, though). Late game it does not. Planes fly 10 times as fast as the fastest cruiser or battlecruiser, and if there aren't CVs around, there's always a nearby land base that will send little flying friends to ruin your day. My own advice is - don't get too attached to your cruisers and even bigger ships. They are built for a time and place and once time flies by and they become obsolete it's more practical to just scrap them. Even CVL conversions are doubtful beyond the fact that they can give you flaptops before you reach the "purpose built CVL" tech. To get such a conversion you must go through new machinery, which is very expensive; you can't get rid of your belt armor, which will cut down the ammount of planes you can get on board; and the end result will have a high maintenaince cost compared with that of a proper CVL, for a ship that will carry a lot less planes. As soon as you hit "purpose built CVLs" your conversions will be a liability...so getting maybe one cruiser converted is OK, more than that is just not. Find those ships a role where it doesn't matter that they're burning coal (colonial duty) ,or just directly scrap them. As for light forces go...ironically it's the opposite. Hold to any early game Destroyers that aren't cramped or (if playing a nation with worldwide commitments) short ranged. When the time comes to do the 10 year rebuild remove most of their torpedoes (or of them all and reclass them as KEs), load them with DCs and K-guns, or fit them with minesweeping gear and fill them with mines. Keep them in reserve in peacetime, once war begins set them to trade protection. You'll have a guaranteed ASW/Mine warfare force for the remainder of the game out of all those 500s , 600, 900 and 1100 tonners. Always keep an eye on rebuild costs. BCs and BBs are huge investments and is very hard to resist the temptation to update them with fancy new engines or upgrade their main guns once you get better ones. The only problem is that it's horribly expensive to do so. Keep an eye on that cost and wonder wether splashing so much cash on your 25.000 BB with 2.5'' deck armor that is going to be gruyere cheese the second newer ships shoot at it is worth it; or wether it is wiser to cut down the cost, accept a much more limited rebuild, and save money for a proper new ship instead. Trying to keep your sub-35k ton capital ship ahead of the quality curve is both expensive and impossible: new ships will always be better, so just settle for "good enough". Your budget will thank you. Rebuilding ships like those should be limited in scope. If your ship is a coal burner, then remachining for oil is both acceptable and cost effective. If it is already an oil burner...it's really not. Bulge ships with no or small torpedo protection and increase top speed to compensate for the speed loss (Generally BBs lose 2 knots when bulged, so if you want your BB to be good for 23knots you'll have to aim for 25). That way you won't lose them to a single torp - and trust me if it doesn't come from a DD it'll eventually come from a plane. Other than that update directors, change from casemated guns to DP single mounts when you can, keep on increasing that AAA, but don't spend any more in them. It's just not worth it. Design and build with a purpose. Don't make your brand shiny new BB's top speed 25 knots just for the number. Think of your other BBs, what's their speed?. Once in battle your battleline is stuck with how fast your slowest ship can go. If you have three classes of BBs, one that's good for 20, other that's good for 22, other that's good for 25 knots, the 5 extra knots in the fastest class and the 2 knots of your second class will be worthless if you happen to get deployed with all of them in battle. That's effective displacement that's not playing a part in battle - it's effectively wasted. Instead aim for a standard speed, add one extra knot to account for a bit of battle damage, and standarize on that. For instance during a game with the US I chose to go with limited top speed but heavy guns and armor. I settled for a battleline speed of 21 knots, so all my BB designs had a top speed of 22. That way when in battle all move at the same speed, and I can keep 21 knots even after some splinters cause a bit of speed loss to a random ship in the line. Speaking of speed - remember that BCs became almost extint when battleships could equal their speeds. For a good reason. Once your BBs can top 27-28 knots while still sporting a brutal punch and massive protection, to field ships that can't have more than a limited ammount of deck and belt armor is just asking for trouble. And you know how Murphy's Laws go, right?. Once the bar has been reached where in order to keep your ships labelled as BCs you have to give up innaceptable ammounts of protection ,just stop building them and build faster battleships instead. By that stage you will be able to build CAs with 8-9 or 10 inch guns for cruiser roles for FAR cheaper (roughly two of those for each one of the BCs). Finally...don't overgun. Yes, yes I know the hype of the 18'' guns. Yamato had them'n'stuff. Bigger is better right?... Turns out that no, not really. 16'' guns can (And will) trounce almost anything they find in this game without even blinking twice. Why go 18'' (god forbid 20'') and pay the huge expenses in displacement and money for guns that are just absurdly overkill?. Well, I guess that for the memes and because it's cool  . But if what you're looking for is cost-effective design, just don't even bother with guns bigger than 16''. They demand too much compromise in displacement and money to make it worthwhile. |
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Post by garychildress on May 21, 2019 21:33:15 GMT -6
I always did well in RTW1 with ships that have superior speed. I haven't fought enough in RTW2 yet to determine whether or not that still holds. Early game it does to a point (an unlucky hit can still send splinters flying through your funnels and cut your sprint short, though). Late game it does not. Planes fly 10 times as fast as the fastest cruiser or battlecruiser, and if there aren't CVs around, there's always a nearby land base that will send little flying friends to ruin your day. I haven't played enough of the game yet and haven't gotten beyond the 1920s so far. How much do aircraft appear in the late game after their introduction, and do aircraft come into play in cruiser actions? Cruiser actions have always been the ones where speed paid off them most. They used to be my bread and butter battles for winning a war. I used to get into quite a few of them and would come out victorious (or else a draw) almost every time. |
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Post by ramjb on May 21, 2019 21:39:30 GMT -6
How much do aircraft appear in the late game after their introductionA LOT! XDDDDD Now in a more serious note - most battles happen near one or the other side's objectives. If said objective happens to be enemy, happens to have an airbase, and that airbase happens to be host of divebombers or (GASP) torpedo bombers or (TRIPLE GASP) medium bombers able to carry torpedoes... yeah, you're going to see them. And your cruiser captains won't be too happy unless you have some means to put a CAP over their heads (And sometimes...even then ). That's not even accounting for possible carriers on the other side. And that's if you're in more or less open waters. Trust me, a trip up into the adriatic can be all kinds of exciting with your ships within range of, easily, three (or more) enemy bases... (Seriously if you're neither Italy or Austro-Hungary, be VERY careful going in there after planes become a thing). |
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Post by trenton59 on May 21, 2019 21:44:14 GMT -6
Early game it does to a point (an unlucky hit can still send splinters flying through your funnels and cut your sprint short, though). Late game it does not. Planes fly 10 times as fast as the fastest cruiser or battlecruiser, and if there aren't CVs around, there's always a nearby land base that will send little flying friends to ruin your day. I haven't played enough of the game yet and haven't gotten beyond the 1920s so far. How much do aircraft appear in the late game after their introduction, and do aircraft come into play in cruiser actions? Cruiser actions have always been the ones where speed paid off them most. They used to be my bread and butter battles for winning a war. I used to get into quite a few of them and would come out victorious (or else a draw) almost every time. Aircraft can show up in any battle close to land bases, and I've seen carriers show up to cruiser battles a few times. ^What he said |
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Post by garychildress on May 21, 2019 21:45:13 GMT -6
How much do aircraft appear in the late game after their introductionA LOT! XDDDDD I see. I saw someone post about their land based aircraft being almost useless because they never showed up in any battles for them, so I wasn't sure if aircraft were such tremendous a factor in the game. I take it the AI maybe gets a little more air coverage for its forces? |
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Post by ramjb on May 21, 2019 21:54:30 GMT -6
I see. I saw someone post about their land based aircraft being almost useless because they never showed up in any battles for them, so I wasn't sure if aircraft were such tremendous a factor in the game. I take it the AI maybe gets a little more aircoverage? Luck plays a part, I guess, distance to nearest base, and many different things. But what's my own land based planes, they certainly have shown in my own battles...and sometimes saving my butt too! One instance in particular, couple 12'' BCs chased by three italian slightly faster 14'' BCs who were coming for blood, hours to go before nightfall... here came the strike, they had to begin throwing evasives against the torpedo bombers. The TBs didn't sink anything, but the forced evasives meant I put a lot of ground in between, enough to slip out of sight and make the escape good. That could've been ugly. VERY ugly indeed . |
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Post by garychildress on May 21, 2019 22:37:42 GMT -6
I see. I saw someone post about their land based aircraft being almost useless because they never showed up in any battles for them, so I wasn't sure if aircraft were such tremendous a factor in the game. I take it the AI maybe gets a little more aircoverage? Luck plays a part, I guess, distance to nearest base, and many different things. But what's my own land based planes, they certainly have shown in my own battles...and sometimes saving my butt too! One instance in particular, couple 12'' BCs chased by three italian slightly faster 14'' BCs who were coming for blood, hours to go before nightfall... here came the strike, they had to begin throwing evasives against the torpedo bombers. The TBs didn't sink anything, but the forced evasives meant I put a lot of ground in between, enough to slip out of sight and make the escape good. That could've been ugly. VERY ugly indeed . That's awesome to hear! I was actually a little disheartened when I saw the post a while back from someone who had said their land based A/C weren't helping them out any. Good to know. I'll definitely be investing in some land based A/C when I get to that point. Thanks for the head's up. |
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snwh
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Post by snwh on May 21, 2019 23:07:09 GMT -6
I see. I saw someone post about their land based aircraft being almost useless because they never showed up in any battles for them, so I wasn't sure if aircraft were such tremendous a factor in the game. I take it the AI maybe gets a little more air coverage for its forces? That was probably my post. In that game, I was playing almost exclusively in very open sea zones, and I think that was the main contributing factor. This new game I've been doing stuff like, having to invade tonkin, and aircraft have been a much bigger factor for sure. So I think it depends a lot in what sea zones your playing in, and what sort of objectives are popping up. Also, obviously, how much range modern aircraft have. (but yeah, I may have called it too soon) |
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Post by aeson on May 21, 2019 23:14:02 GMT -6
To get such a conversion you must go through new machinery, which is very expensive You only need to give the ship new machinery if the design speed of the ship you're converting is below 20 knots. You can do a carrier conversion on an old ten- to sixteen-thousand-ton CA or B capable of 20+ knots for around one to three million, and depending on exactly what you started off with, how heavily you arm it, and whether or not you're willing to bulge you could end up with a CVL capable of carrying between about 12 and 26 aircraft. Replacing the engines as part of the conversion can buy you higher speed, more aircraft, or a better armament, but it's also probably five to ten times more expensive as leaving the original engine plant in place, and the service speed of 20 to 24 knots you'd probably get from converting an old CA into a CVL without modernizing the engines is adequate for an early carrier, especially if all you really want from it is something to let you set Shipboard Aircraft Operations to High while you wait for purpose-built CVLs.
The speed lost from bulging is 10% of the design speed with standard rounding to integer. If you want to achieve a service speed of 23 knots on a bulged ship, you'll need to push the design speed to 26 knots; a 25kn plant will only drive a bulged ship to 22 knots in service.
A caveat - raising the design speed of your battleships every design generation or two allows you to raise your battle line's speed gradually as you replace or withdraw old ships, whereas if you build a large number of battleships to a standard speed and then decide you want to raise the speed of your battle line you need to replace - or at least withdraw - every one of your old slow ships before the battle line speed increases at all. The tonnage you spent on achieving 25 knots on your newest superdreadnought might not be all that well spent while your 20-23kn first- and second-generation dreadnoughts are still part of the battle line, but that design speed of 25 knots will also make it less of a drag to have around when it becomes the oldest ship in your battle line and your modern fast battleships are pushing 27 to 30 knots.
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Post by ramjb on May 21, 2019 23:39:07 GMT -6
Agree on the idea of the "non-modified" CVL as long as you want it to get the ability to get high research on aircraft and don't plan it to use it as a viable combat carrier for very long. Because CVs do need all the speed they can get to properly shadow your flagship movements, while being forced to fly into and out from the wind all the time. My experience with bulges on low 20s knot ships is that speed is reduced by just 2 knots. At least the ones I've rebuilt with a bulge and increased the speed by 2 kept their speed. About the battleline speed: It's down to doctrine in fact, and partly personal preference. Also depends on how many BBs you plan to have/can afford which in turn depends on the nation you are playing. But in general I keep my battlelines on the 21-22knot speed until I do the changeover to fast BBs. That allows me to keep them relatively small and economical (For small budget countries where that's priority number 1), or to armor and arm them to the teeth (For big budget countries where you have more leeway in your spending). Once fast battleships begin to come around, the old battleline's speed doesn't matter wether it was 21 knots all across or 20s here, 23s there, and 25s over there, they're bust in what regards to operating together with new ships that can hit 27-28 knots; what happens then is that the fast BBs become the "fast wing" of the main battleline. In practice I use the fast BBs the same as I previously used the BCs, but with a lot more staying power. Meanwhile the main battleline chugs along at their standard speed, acting as an anvil for the fast battleships' hammer in pitched battles, and chugging behind the fast BBs in pursuit situations waiting for them to put some shells on fleeing enemies so they slow down, fall behind the rest of their friends, and then fall prey to the main battleline guns. In that scenario having a 25 knotter is as useful as having a 21 knot one: it's not fast enough to go with the fast dudes, it's extra speed is a waste in the main battleline. Part of it is because, as I mentioned, I don't lose my head with rebuilds. If you build a 25 knotter you can later rebuild it with extra speed to go with the fast guys. The problem is that then it's going to be too weak compared with the much newer fast guys (which on top of being fast, are going to be exceedingly well protected) so why bother spending money to send it with them?. Wouldn't it more worthwhile to save the big cost, just keep it as it is?. Again, matter of doctrine and budgets: if you don't have much budget for new fast battleships then a machinery rebuild is an option. Otherwise, it's a waste (and the original 25knots of the ship yet another waste because it doesn't need them to chug along with the rest at 21 knots). I'm not saying it's not worthwhile to design battleships with speed increments each generation, though. It is not for my way of standarizing things and for my own doctrinal approach on how I'm going to use those ships, but I can see different approaches where that speed increment can be worthwhile and valuable; again, if you have a nation which will have problems putting out even a couple fast BBs, having a class of a couple older ones that can go along with them after a rebuild is great...but if you're going to churn half a dozen of those fast BBs updating the engines of a couple old far worse armed and armored battleships to go with them is just nonsensical. There are many ways to play this, in fact; again, there are cases where keeping battleline speed the same works better, there are cases where having incremental speeds with each generation makes sense: it's all down to understanding what you want to do with ships and how they fit within your fleet's plans (and of course which are those fleet plans precisely) The point of what I was trying to convey with the speed example was just that: have a plan, or a rough idea of where you're going. And then don't just design for the sake of designing, try to make your ships mesh within whatever you have in mind for your fleet. There's no "right or wrong" in design; as long as you make it work for what you want your fleet to be along the way many different options can be valid. But if you just build a ship for the sake of building it then it's inevitable that many things end up being inneficient, just not working, or end up with the inevitable blank stare at the rebuild screen thinking "WTF do I do with this ship now?" . |
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snwh
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Post by snwh on May 22, 2019 1:40:45 GMT -6
Here's one, don't know if someone mentioned it, but in rtw, you usually wanted to leave a bit of extra tonnage, maybe like 20 or 30, for new fire controls.
You need a lot more than that in rtwII, in my experience. especially around the thirties. cause your AAA is improving, and that stuff is pretty heavy, depending on the size of the ship. Im gonna have to pull the floatplanes off of my new CA's, because I forgot to leave enough tonnage for my new medium AA and directors, 'doh!
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Post by elouda on May 22, 2019 1:45:36 GMT -6
I tend to just go overly heavy on secondary or tertiary batteries to use that spare tonnage, and then pull them off to free weight for FPs, AA, etc.
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Post by pedroig on May 22, 2019 8:16:38 GMT -6
Tips:
1. Get an upgrade on guns? Rebuild ship.
2. Get an upgrade on machinery, torp tubes, centerline mounts? Open Design (adding turrets will invalidate cost savings, but you can add centerline torps)
3. Battle line speed needs to equal or exceed enemy, but it also needs to remain the same, 19 knots for 1900 +1 knot for every 5-8 years is a good guideline.
4. Screen speed needs to be at least 25% more than Battle line speed in general. (DD's, CL's, Light AC's, these can be used for Raider and TP)
5. 1200 ton KE's (MS) with Colonial Service and 5" AY singles give 1500 "Foreign Tonnage" for ~2500 cost in 1900 if you don't mind the free space and don't go crazy on ammo or armour. You can rebuild these when you get Oil Fired if you wish, else every 8-10 years slap a coat of paint on them (takes 2-4 months) Just remember to put them back where they belong.
6. In general non-wasted tonnage for future refit: 60 tons will be about right to go up 2-3 levels of Fire Control with 2 positions. ~3% tonnage for next TPS level.
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. But if what you're looking for is cost-effective design, just don't even bother with guns bigger than 16''. They demand too much compromise in displacement and money to make it worthwhile.
