griffin01 Oh, well, if you change the ownership of the Data's Mapdata Northern China to ROC to start, I didn't try that it might work. But the reason I didnt was because that's a Data file and while I'm okay with a few extra neutral colonies on the map, I dont want to start a playthru with ROC owning it unless Im playing Japan which is why I left it Neutral and only edit it after I create a save.
I see, it makes sense.
So what is the status of ROC? I would love to toss it in for a test-drive, but it sounds like you two are (successfully!) still working out some kinks.
I would love to have ROC in place of Italy in my Japan games, though I would prefer a 'realistic' ROC, aka like a Spain AI country for RTW1.
Firstly, thanks everyone for the interest in my mod and for testing out the bugs.
I am checking back on the ROC suggestions, and probably will do some changes this week (needed a short break from modding). I will post an update when ready.
Feel free to open issues on the github repository as well.
Top priority is the budget, which does seem insane. Let me do some diving in the historical budgets (think I can get to a few reliable sources) and revise this drastically lower. The number was a SWAG. I just sanity checked it with the big boys and did not realize it was overwhelming Japan.
As for Sub naming conventions, the Hai-foo convention is what I am trying to hit, but I am still working out how I can get a prefix + randomized suffix naming convention going for subs. Prefix + number is what I have seen, will have to work to get the Hai-foo Sort of like
This is military expenditures as a whole. Generally, estimates for China vis a Vis Japan should be revised down due to Japan very likely spending more on the navy as opposed to the army.
Key Data points is in Pounds, in 1900 China spent 12241 thousand pounds, compared to Japan's 13311. Throughout the early period till 1914 when the data switches, baring the 1904-1905 Russo Japanese war period, spending was at least comparable. During 1904-1905, Japanese spend skyrocketed to big levels. At 1913 China spent 18408 while Japan spent 19189 which is still comparable but at around a .9:1 ratio. I lower this .9:1 ratio to .6 to reflect that most of Japan's expenditure should be Naval, compared to army for China. The data manual says this number accounts for only the Central Government forces, so in 1913 it would be Yuan Shikai's forces (probably because the KMT had near zero spend at that period). Yuan was still nominally President of the Republic of China so maybe starting out as Autocrat isn't that wrong?
Game resource wise, Japan has base resource 10000 for the 1900 start, so using the .6 ratio this means 6000 base resources for our ROC. This translates to a legacy fleet of 2 terrible Battleships and a dozen destroyers. This makes it difficult to defend 2 coastlines, but probably still playable. I've put the changes in. HBR or historical resources I am using 12 to reflect the 12241 figures above. -------
Additional work for 1920
Sources for China vanishes during this period, (Warlord period means no reliable data? Will check on original language sources), but the spend in USD is 214511 in thousands, we also have 177669 thousands in 1925, but that pretty much is the data for this period. In comparison to Japan, 1919 Japan spent 435629 , 449471 in 1920 and 181598 in 1925. The 1925 figure seems quite similar to our old baseline of .9:1 China:Japan, which we translated to .6:1 in terms of naval expenditure. I think I feel comfortable continuing with this assumption. The rapid economic growth that ROC has probably can be retconned to reflect the growth in budget from the central government consolidating power in a semi feudal environment.
In this case, Japan's Historical 1920 base resources is 25000 with HBR 25, so that translates to 15000 base resource for China, HBR as 17 to reflect the 177669 figure from 1919. People will probably say this is cherry picking, which I admit, but the data is terrible.
Last Edit: Jun 8, 2019 15:15:21 GMT -5 by kongxinga
I wouldnt go that low for China. Instead, because Japan's economy grew by leaps and bounds, I'd put China on equal terms with the Japanese and then let history takes it toll. You do whatever you think you need to do, Kongxinga, because your mod is bad ass and we will adjust it to our playstyles, but overall I love your mod, thank you. Looking forward to an AAR on c campaign with it. Messed around a little bit with it to playtest and its very fun as either Japan2 or ROC.
Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 8, 2019 16:24:29 GMT -5
Agreed dizzy , kongxinga this is Incredible, and I can't wait to both play against it and with it. Bravo Zulu. Also curious to see how ROC handles the rise of alternate governments. This mod is a breath of fresh air- especially for someone who has played the game hundreds and hundreds of times in testing. X.X
Post-Script; I loaded it up to give it a shot, but I think some historical tweaking is necessary. Playing on Historical Budgets and Very Large fleets the ROC's navy was easily 3 times bigger in firepower than Japan (12 Bs & 9 CAs to Japan's 6 & 1), and in fact had the 2nd highest budget in the game, almost 5x Japan's starting 1900 budget.
For a "non" historical start I'd say this is fine, but even if China in 1895 had said with a unified voice 'Big Navies Are It' I would find the strength of ships they could acquire would certainly be less than Japan, or at least comparable.
I don't mean to sound critical though, I am definitely looking forward with eagerness to further development here!
I've put an revised and fixed version of the ROC custom nation mod here to fix some of the glaring issues. Notable features.
1. No more "mountain" for CLs that use the mountain naming convention. This is still a work in progress, but some mountains have been Sinified, and others are called Shan instead now. This is still WIP as I need to use Chinese names for several of the mountains. 2. ROC is now a limited democracy that should change to a liberal Democracy, similar to how Base Germany will get an event that fires to bring in the Fascists. Maybe we could use more flags to reflect this (Five Color?). What I really want is the ability to have more than one change (Autocracy->Limited Democracy->Liberal Democracy) 3. Income has been adjusted to better reflect reality. This makes the early game very tight, but the Rapid economic growth for all periods should eventually mitigate that. This means that standard resource amounts is now 4000 lower than Japan, instead of 6000 above. I am quite embarrassed by this oversight. This is subject to more balancing for playability as I get some feedback. I've run a few years on this and it is dicey, but survivable. 4. Made more progress for a 1920 start, but currently I realized that the 1920 warinfo/battles file needs an update to accomodate the Soviet Union, so it is still not finished. 5. Several corrections, removals and updates, especially to the AMC naming list. I've left a few more flavorful names as English ( the mythological creature Horse-face for example), but Sinified the rest. Historically, and also in the present, Chinese cargo ships largely follow the same naming convention as the other military ships (Yang Ming for the mountain, Foo-yang, Hai-Foo). But if anything is going to get playful/colorful names it is the civilian ships, which is why they largely use animals. I've added a few higher profile historical civilian ships into the list, such as the Taiping (Great Peace), which was an ocean liner that sank with great loss of life, probably the Chinese Titanic or Lusitania.
Further work would be a possible extension to play against ROC as the 6-7 main nations, as well as the 1920 start. I am also somewhat dissatisfied with the CV naming conventions. which are largely ROC land generals, which would probably be an anachronism. Given that the Bs and BBs use provinces (as well as the two historical Battleships) already, a good alternative might be Anti-Qing revolutionary martyrs (Huanghuagang) and any ROC early period martyrs (Northern Expedition or Eastern Expedition Killed in action lists). I have good lists of both, but they are in Chinese, and no English lists seems readily available. The good news is that since I am translating it, I can directly Wade-Giles the whole list.
As usual, you can download from the repository here
or from this post. Unzip, place all files except the flag under /Data within the Rule the waves 2 folder, and the ROC flag under the /Flags folder.
------------- I am wondering about the point of the XX ship class and its shipnames. When do these get used? In addition, currently Italy and Austria-Hungary are non playable, yet they still exist on the map, but it seems the only way to take that off is to edit the mapdata1900 file, which affects all other nations. Is this harmless? Also, does anyone know or remember an indigenous Chinese prototype airplane made sometime in the 1930s to 1940s that had a gull wing design similar to the Corsair used by the United States Navy? All my sources say the Chu XP-0 was the only local design, but I recall reading somewhere about a gull wing design which also crashed on testing.
cv10 , can you update your Japan2 file to use the updated ROC?
Based on the changelog, it shouldn't need updating. Japan2 should use whatever ROC files are in the data folder.
"I cannot feel that a man-of-war is a proper place for a Chaplain...it seems to me uncommon odd, and precious near to cant, to tell the ship's company of a man-of-war with loaded guns to love your enemy and turn the other cheek when the ship and every man jack aboard her is there to blow the enemy out of the water if he possibly can. Either the hands believe it, and then where is your discipline? Or they don't and then it seems to me to come hellfire close to mockery of holy things" Jack Aubrey
------------- In addition, currently Italy and Austria-Hungary are non playable, yet they still exist on the map, but it seems the only way to take that off is to edit the mapdata1900 file, which affects all other nations. Is this harmless?
Playing Hipper's Spain, I chose to edit the warinfo a bit and added replaced the nation... Austria-Hungary I think... with Japan. I edited that mapadata and changed the Home Area value of Austria-Hungary to 12 and changed ownership to Germany to help replace their absence in the Mediterranean. For a Spain start in 1898 before the Spanish-American War when Spain still had it's over seas colonies, it seemed more appropriate to have Japan as an enemy than Austria-Hungary which faded out as Japan became preeminent. Just make a backup of that file mapdata1900. Editing it is fine.
I don't think that KUK and Italy existing on the map are a large hindrance in terms of playing as ROC. You shouldn't really have any business in Europe, anyways, so it's not like you need these possessions.
As for Yuan Shikai, I believe that it would be difficult to reflect all the rapid changes in political landscape in China at the beginning of XXth century, so some sacrifices have to be made. His reign wasn't particularly impactful, especially considering his failed bid for the imperial restoration. I think that he can be safely omitted, given the current limitations we face. That said, I wonder if at the game start China should have the imperial flag and government, and change into ROC only after the event?
The Five Races flag might be appropriate for the early period, but in 1920 start and after transition to liberal democracy, it should definitely change into the White Sun flag. Sun Yat-sen himself didn't really like it. Moreover, it might be difficult to find a naval jack for it, as I'm not aware of one existing (though you might be, your sources seem to be rather good - would you care to share them?).
dizzy Will have to look closely into why that is happening. On my todo list.
ROC Hotfix, including Hotfix for Japan versus ROC.
Here is a new version with
1. Play as ROC in 1920. 2. Using CV10's mod as a base, I've made a few tweaks to better match the scenario title (Convoy attack should reflect Japan attacking ROC, so I've switched the flag for attacker and defender). I've also changed the blockade point to reflect a better point where Japan would hang out to catch Chinese blockade runners. 3. One extra battle for Japan versus ROC, allowing for a Surprise attack on Chinese possessions on war start. 4. ROC ship name fixes, mostly typos.
------------------------- As usual, grab from this post, unzip, place all files into /Data, except for the ROC.bmp file, which goes under /Flag in the Rule the waves 2 directory. Or grab from the repository here using "Download zip" . If you just want to update the Japan files for an existing game, that works as well. Simply add only the new Japan files for now. rtw2-roc-custom-nation-master.zip (46 KB)
------------------------ As for the Naval Jack sources, wikipedia was my main source, although the authority on the subject, the ROC navy, has a page (in chinese ) here that explains the situation. In short, the Blue Sky White Sun flag was used 17 years before the 1911 revolution. In 1906, Dr. Sun Yat Sen suggested using that as the base and adding more red to represent the blood of dead revolutionaries, thus creating the Blue Sky White Sun and whole Red Earth flag. The Navy used the one with Red as its Banner in 1910, but later this was switched, with the Navy using the Blue Sky White Sun as Naval Jack (which we use here), and the other flag became the emblem of the ROC (the country).
I will share some of the Aircraft design bureau sources once I have that compiled.
What is this Northern China fix that everyone is talking about? If I read this correctly, there might be some want for Northern China area to be able to be occupied. Main fix would be to remove the possession for China, and then some editing of the Base game files (likely MapData1900 and mapdata1920) to make Northern China appear as a conquerable province. Northern China is a special province that appears on the map once a Custom Nation is defined to own it, but does not otherwise. BE AWARE, this mapdata changes affect your base game, so keep backups!
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2019 10:58:57 GMT -5 by kongxinga
Could we rationalize that given the Western powers respond to that China tension but not China, that it might more pertain to the Western colonial holdings, and so China herself would not be concerned? If the government that was China held (if begrudgingly) that those colonial ports were here to stay (especially after the Boxer rebellion), then we might surmise that those are not events that China might react to, where-as meddling in Korea (as Japan had done in the decade before and was clearly wont to do) might reflect a more direct threat to Chinese sovereignty.