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Post by klavohunter on May 29, 2019 17:58:21 GMT -6
I second Admiral Ramjb's motion!
[x] 4 x fast cruiser, 2 x Heavy Secondary B, 2 x First Rate cruiser
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Post by Awesome on May 29, 2019 20:27:27 GMT -6
I agree with you on the majestic but I still feel that an increase in battleships is necessary if we want a swift victory
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Post by hmssophia on May 30, 2019 2:14:48 GMT -6
As 1901 broke across the world, the Royal Navy was already hard at work on it's newest round of expansion. The 1901 Naval Construction Plan was announced, which would include: - Four of a new class of fast fleet scouts, each 3,000 tons and capable of 22 knots. - Two new battleships, similar to the majestic but a knot faster and with 8 inch guns in its casemates instead of the 6" of its predecessors. - Two first rate cruisers of the Drake class, a 14,000 ton enhancement of the Diadem which was planned to make 23 knots Also included were additional minesweepers and small fleet support boats that would usually just be paid for out of the Naval budget. The same agent (intelligence hesitates to refer to them as spies) who snagged the North Dakota plans managed to find similar information on the new french class of battleships. Bigger and faster than her American cousins, the Magenta class looks to be something of a threat, especially with its large secondary battery of 7" guns. We are still confident in the new designs of the Formidable however. "It has come to my attention that the Russian Navy under Tsar Nicholas is considering a massive construction program that would see them rival some of our historic continental enemies. I understand you have close ties to the man, your Majesty, and while my letters have thus far fallen on deaf ears perhaps yours will not. Were Russia to become a threat to the Baltic states, it could tip the balance of power in Europe and we may see it descend into war once more.Either Russia must decide on peace, or we must prepare for war, your Majesty. Those are the only choices available to us."A letter from the Admiral to Crown Prince Edward, March 1901At the end of March, England and Empire entered a state of mourning. The long lived Queen Victoria, Empress of India for whom several of the most famous ships of the Royal Navy were names, had died. She laid in state for two weeks before taking her last parade through the streets of a nation she had ruled over for so long. Many took to the pavements to weep and wail and mark her passing. Soon her son would ascend and take his place on the throne. The Queen is dead. Long live the King. The last Canopus class, HMS Revenge, went to sea in April and almost immediately a new keel was laid in her wake. She would join the second battle squadron in the far east, bringing it to 3 battleships and ensuring peace in British holdings in the area. "It is known, my friends, it is known to us that the continent is a peaceful place and it has been for more than a decade. But that peace is threatened! It is not France or Germany, or some other power with whom we have clashed so many times and now consider our friends. No, it is those spiteful Americans, the so called rising stars of the new world, who would undo all our hard work. Oh, i see you leaving, Mr ambassador! Unprepared for harsh words are you?"Excerpt from a bombastic speech given by the Admiral at a Navy League dinnerAdditional funds were allowed for the construction of an additional Drake and an additional Formidable, increasing the initial construction of each class to three ships apiece. It was considered good practice to build enough to fill out a full squadron but it was not until May that the funds were found. July was when tensions spiked significantly. Cuba saw an insurrection challenging the American military presence on the island which had been in place since the Spanish-American war. We immediately issued an ultimatum that the Americans respect the will of the people and remove their troops, believing that a weakening of US power in the Caribbean could only be a good thing for any future war with that nation. They complied, incredibly, though the Platt Amendment passed by their government allowed them all sorts of face saving provisos and second-measures that would allow them to sweep back in at the slightest justification. September saw the laying down of an additional pair of Topaze third class cruisers, bringing their number up to six. The Admiralty was confident it could empty the coffers before December. In addition, Yarrow have completed a new dock which should be capable of 21,000 tons, the largest ships ever sailed thus far. A naval architect has approached the Admiralty with a new plan. Having seen the plans for the three Formidables, he believes he has a better solution. Rather than the small casemated guns, why not instead mount large secondary guns in similar turrets to the primary armament. Ten inches, he believes, would be sufficient to essentially give a ship an eight gun broadside the likes of which had not been seen since Trafalgar. A coronation review, celebrating the crowning of King Edward VII, was marred today when HMS Rodney and the Russian Evstafi collided, damaging both. Later, fighting in port between sailors of both nations was only broken up when military police arrived with truncheons in hand. At the end of 1901, the Royal Navy is in a strong position. With superiority in battleships and strong squadrons around the world, it seems there is no denting its power. It remains to be seen whether Russia will risk war with such a mighty empire. Shipbuilding priority:[ ] Chase technology - We should plan for new classes of ship whenever we can to take advantage of new technology [ ] Measured construction - We should design and build new ships as others are completed, not overwhelming the budget with flights of fancy. [ ] Small ship priority - We have enough battleships for now. Torpedo boats, second and third class cruisers, even minesweepers, these are what we need. Diplomacy:
[ ] We should not risk war with Russia, we have other priorities. Appease them. [ ] If Russia would like war, it can have it. Expand the forces in Weihaiwei and prepare for a fight.
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euchrejack
Full Member
Don't feed the Trolls. They just get bigger and more numerous.
Posts: 139
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Post by euchrejack on May 30, 2019 5:52:52 GMT -6
Chase Technology: You need battleships, so why not build 1-2 new ones every time new tech becomes available? I guess that could be downgraded to Armored Cruisers.
Diplomacy: If Russia pushes for war, then their subjugation and naval dismantling at the business end of the long guns should make it easier to take on the Americans.
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Post by hmssophia on May 30, 2019 12:53:06 GMT -6
February, 1902. Plans for the German Konigsberg first class cruiser arrive at Admiralty headquarters. Clearly inspired by our own Drake, but inferior in almost every way, they will surely suffer should we find new enmity with the Deutsche republic. A new discovery is being pressed upon us by the government, through no choice our own. While we may previously have experimented with submersible vehicles, some of them equipped with spar-mines and pneumatic guns, this new device is supposedly a functional, working submarine. With whitehead torpedoes and full underwater capabilities it is intended to sink ships many times its size with barely a whisper of its presence. It is difficult to believe, but our right honourable prime minister insists. We have ordered a single one for testing purposes. Plans have been drawn up for an even more advanced first class cruiser, replacing the secondary battery with more of the 9.2" guns that seemed to be working so well aboard the Drake. It has lead some to wonder whether the same couldn't be done aboard the larger battleships in service, or new versions of them at least. Otherwise, 1902 was a dull year all told. Tensions eased significantly in all quarters and left the Royal Navy in the hands of a government unwilling to spend great sums of money without the threat of war on the horizon. Of course, why should they, except for the continuation of a naval tradition. The Drakes will be completed in the first half of 1903, the Formidables in the second, but for what war. Nations are looking inwards, not out. There are feelings of betrayal amongst the sailors of the Fleet. Still, the Good Hopes have been laid down. A new class of battleship has been put to committee, the so-called Centurions. The future comes, whether the government wants it or not. Where should our focus be?[ ] Survivability [ ] Aggression [ ] Torpedo forces There are suggestions of a new 'submariners' arm of the Navy:
[ ] An excellent suggestion. We should take advantage of all weapons, no matter the cost. [ ] Our finances should go towards proven weapons, not flights of fancy.
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Post by ramjb on May 30, 2019 13:53:00 GMT -6
The new cruiser design is a good choice - technology is clearly advancing in strides and seems it's not far in the future that full fledged battleships will sail in the line of battle with a similar arrangement of turrets, only of bigger calibers.
The construction of a whole new class of battleship is of some concern however; it doesn't seem wise to spend vast funds in ships built to current designs just as we have clear evidence of how new doctrines and technologies will condemn them to obsolescence the second a ship with the newest features incorporating the latest all-big gun doctrines is built.
The suggestion here is to act with vision and save up for the time the Royal Navy needs to build a good number of those to outpace any foreign construction from the very start and keep the british dominion of the oceans unchallenged.
As for the focus on new designs, the prevalent opinion of our staff is that staying power precedes other considerations. If our fleet enjoys not only the most vast numbers of units, but also the most resilient designs per unit, our supremacy will hardly be contested.
Meanwhile the new underwater vessel opens new interesting avenues worth considering, but as a whole this staff recommends against a mass scale adoption. For obvious reasons of prestige and principle, the Royal Navy has to have good numbers of any warship used by other nations too, be it able to sail under the surface or avobe it. Hence a moderate number of those new vessels is both necessary and an interesting investment to explore the new tactical opportunities it might entail. But until further assurance of the worth of the weapon, we shouldn't invest too much on it for if it later turns out to be of lesser impact than the necessary to justify such investment those funds will be as good as wasted.
(Translation - hold on building new battleships until proper dreadnoughts are viable, and save enough funds so when it's the time to go for them a crash program to build a whole squadron in one go can be done. Focus vote goes for survivability, build a handful of submarines but not go crazy about them).
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Post by Awesome on May 30, 2019 15:10:19 GMT -6
Yet again I must agree with Admiral Ramjb
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Post by hmssophia on May 30, 2019 15:21:00 GMT -6
ramjb would your mind be swayed at all by the information that the centurion class is a semi dreadnought?
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Post by cuirasspolisher on May 30, 2019 19:20:31 GMT -6
There is no need to build yet another battleship class; our naval superiority is secure. We should take care to remember that our vessels cannot fight if they cannot float and investigate methods of damage control. As guns grow ever more powerful, our designs must be built more strongly to compensate.
These submarines are interesting toys, but nothing more. Why should we invest in a weapon designed to counter the very ships that are our strength?
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Post by goodwin315 on May 30, 2019 20:22:59 GMT -6
Egad sir! This whitehead armed submersible is the antithesis of what our proud navy stands for! We rule the waves sir! Rule them! and the king does not slink about the shadows does he now!? The budget should not be spent on the weapon of cowards and curs hiding beneath the the surface. No, every effort should be made to counter this new threat and condemnation upon the disgraceful nations that use them! Maybe a new design of ram on a fast armored cruiser? That should see to it that those "submarines" and their yellow bellied crews do not surface again! See to it indeed!
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Post by ramjb on May 30, 2019 23:32:47 GMT -6
ramjb would your mind be swayed at all by the information that the centurion class is a semi dreadnought? "Semi" is only half as bad as "Pre" in this context. It's the belief of our staff that as such, the investment on such ships would be only as half as bad as in "Majestic"-like battleships. Instead of instantly obsolete wold be instantly obsolescent, wich, in turn, would mean that investment in such ships would be, instead of a total waste, a major waste... Our reccomendation still is to withhold new battleship construction until a stable pattern of new battleship that we can invest on is a reality. This design staff also would like to comment on the big resistance recently seen between other experts and committees about this new underwater vessel we were asked about. While it is our belief that indeed such a weapon is one that doesn't fit at all within the tradition and realities of the Royal Navy, we should also remember that it DOES fit within other nations' tradition of piracy and corsary action. Even if we don't build those weapons other navies will build them. And use them against us if given the chance. It's much harder to fight a weapon you don't understand. In order to fight it we must understand it. In order to understand it we need to operate it. In order to operate it, we need to build it. Our reccomendation still stands - we should build some of those ships to investigate how they will truly affect naval warfare in the future. (Out Of Character: It's always fun to remember how sternly proud the Royal Navy was at the time, and how opposed most of it was against the submarine for being an "underhanded", "coward", and "ungentlemanly" weapon...when the very beginning of the british naval tradition was based on guys like Drake who was nothing short of a pirate himself ).
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Post by hmssophia on May 31, 2019 10:56:02 GMT -6
"As much as I find the reporting of our enemies ships and the apparent protection from their spies, our intelligence services are going to have to find a better way of doing so. Yet another agent has been found in the Tsars court, and my ships have been tasked with retrieving him from Russian shores. I only pray that they will return safely from under the cold, cold guns of Archangel, those fine cruisers of the Royal Navy. And that they do not take any risks in the process of recovering the agent."Diary of the Admiral, January 1903In February, the West African squadron led by HMS Carysfort sailed South down the coast from Nigeria to Cameroon, where the Fon of Banfut has restarted a colonial conflict against nearby occupying Germans. Normally this would be nothing to do with Britain but for a small number of citizens currently in amongst the local population. Thus the cruisers have sailed not only to collect our people, but to shell anyone who dares threaten the King's citizenry. March sees not only an increase in the budget thanks to a flare up in tensions with the Russians, but also the completion of the design work for the Centurion class. A revolution in design, it has reliable boilers capable of propelling it to 18 knots, eight 10" secondary guns in four wing turrets and exceedingly thick armour. Not only that, but it is larger than any other ship currently sailing. None are ordered, Naval committees suggesting that Britain already has superiority and will be better equipped with additional cruisers once the Formidables are finished. As such, an additional Good Hope has been laid down, due to be commissioned as HMS King Alfred come 1905. "I am unconvinced as to the efficacy of this 'submarine force' that is being invented to bring purpose to this so-called weapon the genii of Greenwich are trying to convince us of. I cannot see a future where such an underhanded vessel will become important to a Navy with such a proud history as ours. The rule of the waves is the gleaming battleship, not the sneak-thief that slips beneath the surface. To offer me this command is an insult. I will do my duty, but I do it under protest."Letter from Commander Harris Tonald to the Admiralty, later Admiral of SubmarinesHMS Hood was commissioned. Eight more Destroyers were laid down. And, one bright May morning, the Minister for War arrived at the admiralty to demand immediate action against the Russians. Of course the Admiralty agreed immediately and mobilised the fleet. The next day, a fleet left for the Baltic. The first class cruisers Aboukir and Drake led the battleships Canopus, Royal Oak and Repulse along with a large escort of second and third class cruisers and torpedo boats. They were dispatched to raid along the Russian coastline and frustrate as much of the enemies shipping as possible. 28th, 5th, 1903 HMS Drake, ten miles North East, reports contact with an unknown vessel. Within half an hour, two are suspected as being cruisers and I order the approach at full speed while our cruisers hold the range. Soon reports arrive that they are an Askold and two Oslyabya's and I become even less concerned. The trio are first class in guns alone and the Drake's could outfight them without my battleships in support. The only concern is the approaching dusk. We have two hours to bring them to combat. Hopefully we shall. Half past five, ships time, they came within range of my own great guns. I have had command of the Royal Oak for a year and finally she is allowed to hunt in the way she was made for. I could feel the throb of her boilers even up on the bridge. It felt glorious. When those two twelve-inchers cracked in anger for the first time? Indescribable. Canopus joined a minute later, swinging just enough out of line to clear her guns. Repulse followed suit and we suddenly had six rifles on these tiny Russian cruisers where before we had two. I do not know why, but this was the time the Russians chose to turn hard to starboard. We began to cross their aft in line, a reverse of Trafalgar and it was not long before the first hits started to land. At this point I ordered speed reduced to maintain the shafts and reduce temperatures, keeping the Russians well within range even as we did so. Somehow we ended up chasing them south. I cannot explain the decisions their commander made but to me they seemed foolish at best. Then it became even stranger. The Askold came blasting towards us at fifteen knots out of the setting suns glare. Suddenly she is at 6000 yards and all turrets are turning on here, the flash and rumble chasing the strange ship. She was hit repeatedly before she turned away and though we traded damage she surely came off worse. At some point the sun set. Their destroyers attempted a run against us, but nothing came of it. I ordered the guns to hold fire, and wondered if we would see any more action come dawn. 29th, 5th, 1903We turned back towards our objective at first light. It turned out that one of our destroyers had collided with one of theirs sometime in the night, or something anyhow. She certainly hadn't hit another of ours. The Drake caught and sank a merchant, her escort picking up the survivors. While hunting another, we briefly sighted a lonely Russian battleship. We gave chase, of course, but she ran. Eventually, we turned South and began the long journey home.Rear Admiral Vincent Coelus, commanding HMS Royal Oak, report on the Battle of Hango The wartime budget is much increased. Where is the focus: [ ] More first class cruisers [ ] More second and third class cruisers [ ] More torpedo boats, destroyers and corvettes
How should this war be prosecuted? [ ] As aggressively as possible. The Russians can be crushed to teach the world a lesson. [ ] A steady approach. We must win decisively but not take too many risks. [ ] End it as soon as possible. This is simply a weapons test.
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Post by ramjb on May 31, 2019 12:55:49 GMT -6
... So, in the context of an ongoing war and with the world watching, we firmly believe it's in our best interest that we don't suffer any serious losses in our quest for victory over the tsarist fleet. We all share Nelson's traditions, but Nelson lived at a time when the only challengers to our supremacy over the waves were our french and spanish enemies, the rest of the european powers being both allied with us, and in no position to present a challenge in case of a costly victory.
Now, 100 years after our biggest victory, we're presented with another chance to prove our might and supremacy over the oceans. But today the rest of the european powers aren't fighting in our side - they're watching and paying attention to our performance in battle. It is so primordial that we not only win, and win decisively, but we do so without serious losses; for if such an inferior enemy can hurt us, not beat us, just hurt us, other powers might believe they can hurt us aswell.
There's no question that we expect resistance to this idea. Every officer in the Admiralty has been trained and taught in the Nelsonian principle of agression at any costs and will resist any suggestion to be cautious. Some will call us cowards for putting forward this advice, but when what it's at stake is our prestige as an unbeatable navy in the sea, we should not only win, but also win without serious loss so said prestige is left intact. Our hope is to convince the Board that even a victory can be a long term defeat if we don't prevent serious casualties.
(Passages from a letter from the Strategic Assessment Office to the Navy Board, 1st of June 1905) ............ I received the complete design details of HMS Centurion last week. It's a blessing that I have the ear of the First Sea Lord on this because whoever was responsible for such a proposal should be sent to design trawlers for the Falklands fishing fleet and never allowed to come back. Secondary guns of 10 inches?, who thought that would be a good idea when they demand a ship of that size?. Furthermore, we all went through gunnery school, and it's not as if it was a recent discovery that guns with similar calibers make spotting the fall of shot a nightmare. What do we want all those guns for if they're going to be shooting all over the place?.
It's needless to say that in yours' truly general appreciation we should push that kind of nonsensical notion out of the brains of the Sea Lords, for it's well known they liked the ship...they almost ordered it, for crying out loud!. If firepower is what they want, let us have firepower! let's build a ship with all those turrets, but let it all those turrets armed with 12in caliber guns, I say!. No nonsensical middle ground, no bothersome caliber mixing, no design compromises that come with tradeoffs in battle. If we're going to build ships that size, let them be armed to the teeth, and be done with it!.
There's thus no debate that, if the alternative is between building the monstrosities the Board proposed or more cruisers, then more cruisers it should be. There's always a need for those, and the Drake is a worthy ship to build (for a change, seeing what's been coming from the Design Office lately, that one at least is a good ship). Getting one or two more of those built, and whatever's left in the budget used to build faster Light Cruisers would be the wisest path at the moment - besides, there's always need for fast ships in the Navy, the more, the merrier, the more powerful, the better. Fast and powerful is always better than just powerful. Speed, as you know I've always advocated, my friend, is the singlemost important thing a ship can have, and fast warships is the most important assets any navy can wish for.
(excerpt from a letter to the DNC, signed by Adm. John Fisher, CiC Portsmouth) ............ (out of character: there was no such thing as a Strategic Assessment Office, and Jackie Fisher was First Lord already by 1905, but hey who says I can't get some licences in order to add some flavor to this? XDDDDD. Also, I know that building dreadnoughts is still not possible, but you gotta represent the people pushing for them, right?. And he was the one who pushed the hardest. . Obviously I vote for #2: a steady approach. Also, my vote goes for more 1st class cruisers (and if anything's left in the budget, some light ones)).
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Post by Awesome on May 31, 2019 16:45:16 GMT -6
We must build modern destroyers to protect our trade no matter where it may be
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Post by cuirasspolisher on May 31, 2019 18:16:06 GMT -6
The Russians are even more feckless in battle than I suspected. It would be a music-hall farce if not for the hapless conscripts who must die for the Tsar's arrogance. Such a pity, but 'tis the price of admiralty. Speaking of prices, these cruisers are worth every penny. We must have more! The Russians, as we have seen, will rout at the sight of a British warship, so we must have enough fast ships to chase them down.
Caution is the refuge of inferior navies. If we shrink from the enemy's rusty tubs, we will cease to be taken seriously. Attack them relentlessly.
Our present battleships do the job well enough without those monstrous secondary batteries. The only revolution this Centurion resembles is the French one, for the First Lord will want the designer's head!
[Writing this arrogantly is fun. I'll have to think of an appropriate reaction to our first magazine detonation.]
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