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Post by hmssophia on Jun 12, 2019 17:14:17 GMT -6
I love this back and forth alot
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 12, 2019 18:00:20 GMT -6
Ok, the next time there's something fantastic like this going on and I don't know about it someone needs to tell me. Bravo!
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Post by hmssophia on Jun 13, 2019 4:29:35 GMT -6
The Mars class, the successors to HMS Redoubtable and her ilk, were what was considered an 'affordable' battleship. Combining modern design techniques, heavier armour belts, an eight gun centre-line battery and a five inch secondary battery for defence against larger torpedo boats as had been appearing on the oceans, she would also be built at a high rate until her design became untenable. She did not, however, implement the new super firing turrets or any update in gun-laying. The former was the source of many arguments over how the sighting hoods would be kept safe as the upper turret fired overhead, while nothing reliable had come out of the latter. But nonetheless, the Mars was the future. February 1911 saw a new commitment from the Royal navy to their submarine force. Though it had been decimated in the two years of war with Germany, it had also proved itself in the torpedoing of several major warships and assisting in the blockade. A new submarine, the F-class, would be capable of ranging far beyond British shores and though the E-class would be built alongside which maintained the shorter range, many of this new type would be built. In March, a large group of retired sailors, officers and others assembled in Plymouth to watch the five Majestic class battleships which had sat in mothballs for some months take on skeleton crews of stokers, pilots and others. These men would take them north in their very last steam in line, as they went to the breakers after fifteen years of essential service. "This Asquith, I was concerned when he took power in Westminster, but it turns out that a liberal is still nervous of his enemies power. He came to my offices - yes, the Prime Minister came to the Admiralty rather than demanding my presence - and asked whether or not we would manage three new battleships this year. It was not how we had expected to build the mars, but I will not complain about more money for more Dreadnoughts. Not at all."Diary of the Admiral, April 1911"I previously gave a speech here, once upon a time and before two wars, wherein I stated that the so called United States of America were the greatest threat to world peace. Since then I have been criticised for not seeing the oncoming threat of the Russians, or of our friends in what is now the German Socialist Republic. But I stand by my words. Those continental powers are no match for the Royal Navy and we have shown twice now that we will ensure the end of any that challenge us. The United States believe they are safeguarded by distance but let me say this now - in Newfoundland, Jamaica and Vancouver, the men of the Royal Navy stand watch over our children, and every day we are prepared to bring them back into the fold."
Speech given to the Navy League by the AdmiralSeptember 1911 - The Great Greys departed Britain. A cadet tour aboard HMS Invincible and HMS Invulnerable, the fastest battle cruisers in the world, was due to make port in Newport in the United States as their first stop in a circumnavigation of the globe. The pair were accompanied by several light cruisers and ships of other European fleets including the German SMS Moltke and the Russian Navarin, both battle cruisers in their own right but smaller and slower than the two modern RN vessels.
The first two years of the 1910's were marked amongst the Royal Navy by a huge construction and reconstruction program. New Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers and Corvettes were joined on the slips by submarines and a rebuilding program of cruisers which would refit almost the entire British colonial fleet. Old squadrons were disbanded and reformed as ships came onto station and replaced tired crews with tired hulls under their command. By 1914, the entire fleet would almost be like new as this crash program came to an end. A perfect example of this was the reconstruction of the Comus Class second class cruiser which had served so capably against the Germans. They received new gun laying systems, new guns, new turrets, all of which was certain to make them a deadly threat in the next conflict.
In July of 1912, yet another new report landed on admiralty desks, yet again requesting the formation of a new service. In it, it was implied that the future of the Navy could only be driven from the air. Madness, many senior admirals scoffed, but younger men considered the future. Airships were a coming thing, and lighter than air flight seemed much more promising than any of those insane heavier than air attempts. Certainly there was an argument for them - but how much could the Navy afford to spend really?
Airships - how many and where? [ ] None, this is a silly trifle. [ ] A few small bases in vital areas, such as the Med. [ ] All over the world - the sun never sets on airships nor the Empire.
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Post by renlybaratheon on Jun 13, 2019 6:11:50 GMT -6
Sir, I note from your pages the admiralty is considering 'Airships' the question is ask is why are they still only considering, whay have the failed to make a decision, why are we wasting time on these madcap scheme. Let us have these so called 'airships' we can crew them with pixies or elves and they can replace the battleships and we can rule the world without ever needing to get the hull of a ship wet again. Of course we cannot, absolute rot, what we need is more and bigger battleships, not bloody Airships. Give them to the army, nothing good will come of man trying to fly. Battleships represent the future and as regards this 18" gun that the great and the good are considering it should be put into production immediately and a new class of so called 'dreadnaughts' built around them
[letter to 'The Times' from Commodore Nicholas Syke (retired), Godalming, Surrey]
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 13, 2019 7:39:17 GMT -6
I Transcript here, from best memory, a conversation with a man loitering off my veranda;
"Oi- 'ere now, I'as drivin' Commodore Syke to 'is billards, an 'ere 'e goes and says the Navy is thinkin' of makein' Peter Pan 'appen. Th' Navy, spendin' good farthings on makein' people fly. Fly. Th' communist revolution started a lot closer to 'ome is 'ere what I think. -spit-"
[Appearing as a passage in 'Naval Bill Commentary', a Labour Party news sheet in the House of Commons, by Georg Listener, Newcastle on Tyne]
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 13, 2019 7:47:28 GMT -6
Sir, once again I find myself writing as the voice of reason in these very pages. To my disgust, I have read that certain ill-qualified former colleagues of mine advocate a total ignorance of upcoming technology. I speak, of course, of the new 'airship' project of the admiralty which the bombastic Commodore Syke has dismissed out of hand. While his concern for the battlefleet is somewhat admirable, I would hasten to point out that they are utterly useless in the task of locating the enemy, a process that relies solely on such ships as the lighter cruisers and the poor benighted torpedo boat destroyers. The potential of the airship to improve this process is as yet unrealised but may aid the 'surface' fleet is many ways. I admit that they may turn out to be a 'white elephant' of the skies but are certainly worth trialling. I would boldly suggest two such stations at Harwich and Scapa Flow as to cover both the North Sea and the Channel. Should they prove effective, stations in Ireland to cover the Western Approaches and Malta to cover the Mediterranean Sea.
I have also discovered that these prejudices against such change are working their ways down to the 'common man'. This type of naysaying must be ceased immediately if we are to stave off the threat of Communism. Our strength is founded in a united front, which cannot be maintained if people are willing to critise the necessary changes to the navy to the uninitiated in the street.
Certain members of the establishment would do well to remember that the world is perpetually changing and that we will not be the supreme power for very long if we should not change with it.
Admiral Sir Robert Nelson (ret.), Hampshire [Letter to the Times]
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Post by Procopius on Jun 13, 2019 10:22:07 GMT -6
Extract from BRITAIN'S FUTURE IS IN THE AIR by Noel Pemberton Billing (privately printed pamphlet, c.1911)
Many naysayers will tell you The Air is no place for our proud British Lion, but they betray their ignorance not only of military affairs, but also, I submit to you, of the very Bible itself, where in 7 Daniel a Lion is depicted with wings. Can there be any doubt left in the mind of a thinking person that Britannia's trident must now also be adorned with wings? We must have airships, and we must have them now. Wherever our great Fleet expects to face our hateful, unmanly foes, we must have airship bases, to seek out and find the enemy. With Britain's all-seeing eyes gazing upon the seas, no more will our fleets fail to come to grips with the enemy.
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Post by hmssophia on Jun 13, 2019 11:46:40 GMT -6
The badges of HM Royal Navy as of 1912. There's a Marine's badge that's thus far undrawn, and there'll be a new one for the air arm at some point.
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Post by hmssophia on Jun 13, 2019 13:18:04 GMT -6
Miners Strike Black Gold!On the Newfoundland coast, prospectors have struck lucky - oil has been found and already the companies are swooping in to make good on this new source of fuels to drive the future of the British Empire forwards. This is going to make the men who found it very rich; and the Royal Navy even richer, as now they can build a fuelling station at St John's and extend the capabilities of their newest ships even further. In August of 1912, the first Airbases began construction. One would be in Harwich, and another in the far North of Scapa Flow. Concerns about the weather around the latter were put to one side - the airships would act as the eyes of the fleet after all. Each base would eventually hold a squadron of eight aircraft which would be deployed across the Channel and North Sea to guard British assets. Assuming all went well, locations were being scouted in Cork, Malta, Gibraltar and Cyprus for additional bases to extend the RN's reach. Surely one day the world would be covered in such constructions, but for now a more limited program was ongoing while the fleet brought its ships up to modern standards. "Comrades! England has been waging war on the continent for Centuries, and even recently they have been sending our Brothers to die. And as each month, each day of war goes bye, it becomes increasingly obvious that the idea of the noble battle is nothing more than a capitalist lie. These wars are not wars between the people but wars between capitalists, between the big Robbers, each of them striving to get their biggest share of the loot."
Opening lines to a speech by Cormack McCarthy, Irish RevolutionaryThe first cruisers that may match the Invincible class have appeared. The Tolouse class, a new French warship, matches her in speed and exceeds her in the number of rifles; but that is where the similarities end. Heavier but with less armour, she seems to spend her tonnage on a superfiring forward turret and the two additional guns which will surely manage little with the reduction in shell weight. "Dear Sirs, It is firmly the belief of this agency that the main agent in play in Ireland is one Igor Gorski, going under the name of Shane Lindley. Not only is he agitating the communists, but he is also managing incoming arms shipments and other equipment for the rebels in Ireland. We take him, we take the Russian queen in this situation."
Letter to the head of British Intelligence, 1912January 1913. The balance of power is shifting, and while tensions are high with the Americans, they are almost at breaking point with the Russians. We are concerned that a war may push the balance even further out as the Americans are able to focus on construction while we fight an enemy we should not even be considering the events of 1903. Even if we must clash with the Tsar's forces, at least we can be confident of their weakness. But nonetheless, we are given pause. Pause which is only worsened as the new year breaks. Ireland has pushed our forces out and elected a communist government. It is an outrage, and the people are riotous; though not so much as the Irish. But on the other hand, while that is a tragedy, technology has fallen into our laps in droves. A new design for a battleship has been submitted to the Admiralty that includes not just one, but three new modifications which would make it superior to the Mars class let alone those which came before it. Those are: - Super firing turrets - Ten rifles - Director control of gunnery At almost four million pounds, this would be an expensive class of ship - but with four guns fore and aft, and ten on the broadside, she may well me worth it. Dreadnought Program 1913[ ] Build the new class, as many as possible despite their cost. [ ] Build a modified Mars which includes these new technologies, as cheap as possible. [ ] Focus on refitting the Dreadnoughts we have. [ ] A fast battle cruiser would be far superior... Policy 1913[ ] We should appease Russia [ ] We should try to force a conflict against this weak power [ ] We should ignore the Russians and focus on the Americans.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 13, 2019 14:29:38 GMT -6
The Admiralty Whitehall London
Dear Your Lordships,
As you may recall, I was asked to momentarily cease my sparring in the columns of the Times and pen a report concerning our current construction and foreign policy. You will, by now, have read the entire report but I summarise it again here:
-Testing has shown that our old-style pre-dreadnought line-of-battleships are hopelessly obsolete, lacking both speed and firepower yet requiring as much maintenance and escort availability as a modern dreadnought. The report recommends a refit for as many as are required for foreign stations to standard and scrap the remainder.
-From intelligence reports, we are lacking ships of the battle-cruiser pattern relative to our potential adversaries. This must be amended immediately. As soon as monetarily possible, four of these displacing no less than 30,000 tonnes must be laid down. It is presumed that, unlike dreadnoughts, their speed will allow them to be present in a greater proportion of battles. 16" is the recommended calibre but, should budget constraints prevent this, 14" is acceptable.
-All dreadnoughts of the battlefleet are recommended to have an upgrade to the newest fire control system. Gunnery trials have shown that if an enemy has the better fire control, they will have the initial advantage, regardless of numerical superiority.
-Russia is to be ignored if at all possible. They are easy to blockade and are no match for our fleet (other than in the aforementioned class of battle-cruisers). The United States of America is the greater threat, particularly due to their rapid improvements in shipbuilding. They have the resources to threaten our dominance of the oceans if this is not checked. One notable recommendation, however, is to avoid fighting both Russia and the USA simultaneously. Blockade cannot be maintained on both at once. Concessions should be made to Russia if this eventuality looks likely.
-More money ought to be made available for research into the so-called 'aircraft'. We can ill afford to allow weaker nations to use this new technology to their unmitigated advantage. An export ban on relevant technologies is also advised.
It is many years since I last hoisted my flag on HMS Warrior but I hope this report will aid the Royal navy in its most glorious future endeavours.
I remain, your Lordships, your most obedient servant,
Admiral Sir Robert Nelson (ret.)
[Letter regarding a confidential report on current naval affairs commissioned by the Admiralty]
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Post by renlybaratheon on Jun 14, 2019 3:02:08 GMT -6
Sir.
I note that the admirality continues to fritter its money away on toys whilst at the same time being unable to protect our holdings at home, if we cannot keep the rebelious irish at bay what chance do we have of returning the lost colonies to their righfull place in the Kings empire!! Not to worry though we now appear to want to pick a fight with Russia!, Russia i ask you, i wonder how many of the mandarins in whitehall will be queueing up to be the new govenor of Sakahlin Island
Sir, i put it to you we have but three priorities. 1) Refit our older battleships with newer fire control and updated naval rifles 2) Concentrate on recovering the lost colonies, keep Russia in her box, if necessary throw the Russian Bear a tasty morsel in Europe to keep its hunger at bay. German occupied Poland would surely be welcomed 3) Spend our resources on a new class of battleships large of gun and heavy of girth Finally and for gods sake put the trecherous irish back where they belong. An independent Ireland? what ever next, Scottish independence??
[letter to 'The Times' from Commodore Nicholas Syke (retired), Godalming, Surrey]
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Post by baileinneraora on Jun 14, 2019 4:22:02 GMT -6
Sir, The current situation of the Navy means we can no longer claim with a great deal of confidence of our superiority over the waves with the Navies of the Tsar and the rebellious Colonist outnumbering us in Battle cruisers and Battleships respectively. There lack of foreign station requirements mean they have not had to build the numbers of Protected Cruisers that we have to keep the arteries of the Empire clear and have thus gained an advantage. While I do believe on an individual ship basis we are the superior force quantity has a quality all of its on. I thus submit to you my reccomendations for the near future:
1) A war would likely be more easily won against the Americans as our ships will be able to bring their fleet to Battle while the Russians with their Battlecruisers can pick and choose their engagements and will likely try and interdict our merchantmen. This will necessitate Battleships escorting convoys and we can expect a war fought as such to be longer and more expensive. For the Americans defeating them would also help secure our oil supply from St John which will prove increasingly vital
2)The old 'Pre-Dreadnoughts' should be phased out on a ship for ship basis as new Battleships are commissioned, it may prove prudent to modernized 3 or 4 but is not of high priority
3) Each year for the next three we should seek to launch a new class of Battleships with one being the best British technology can provide with the other two being iterative improvements of the Mars class. There should also be built a Battle Cruiser equivalent of each class as well.
I believe these recommendations will once again ensure the preeminence of His Majesty's Navy, Yours Sincerely, Captain Richard Douglas RN
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Post by hmssophia on Jun 14, 2019 6:59:34 GMT -6
"Commodore Tonald, commander of the submarine forces, has gotten himself a command, a badge, and now the ear of the Minister for War. It is being pushed upon me that we build a collection of these ocean-going submarines before we next go to war. Fine I say, we shall build some but the Minister says Tonald has suggested three flotillas! Madness I say. He shall have one and a half, twelve boats, and he shall like it. Fortunately, the minister has seen sense, but still the command is for several. Frustrating."
Diary of the Admiral, 1913In July, HMS Empress of India was laid down. She was expected to be finished in late 1914 or early 1915 - almost three years of construction. But it would be worth it. She was an entirely new development even compared to the Mars class that had preceded her, a blank slate design that truly would be worthy of the name 'super-dreadnought'. It was a term that had been bandied about around the US ships, the Germans, even the Mars class itself. but the 31,000 ton Empress? That's what a super-dreadnought is. A revolution. The most powerful ship on the high seas. HMS Mars joined the Home Fleet for her working up period in October, as the Invincible battle cruisers went into the yards for a refit. They would receive the new directors, improving their limited gunnery several fold. A second Empress, the Royal Sovereign, would begin construction a month later. as the main refit period ended and both slips and money was freed up for new construction. "The Japanese have approached us about an alliance. Is our position in Asia this weak that they consider they could bring something useful to the table? The politicians are all in favour. A potential war with Russia on the horizon would allow a blockade at both ends - how quickly could they collapse in that case? And our new submarines are on the table as well... I will express my reticence to the Minister, but I believe I approve."
Diary of the Admiral, December 1913The Japanese ships Iwami, Kurama and Ikuma arrived on a goodwill visit at the start of 1914, three battleships and their accompanying escorts sent to secure a peace deal that would be matched by the visit of Canopus class battleships in Japan itself. They were hailed as friends, saluted into port as any British ship would be and their commanding officers given a tour of Portsmouth's facilities. Newspapers spoke of the high quality of their crews and many friends were made in the following weeks.
June 1914. Oil has been struck in the Falklands Islands, further enabling the Royal Navy. Meanwhile, a new plan has been presented for a ship which will carry small heavier than air craft which it can launch while sailing alongside a fleet. They are suggested to be able to act as scouts for the battlelines.
Aircraft - a fools errand or the future? [ ] Build a test ship [ ] A squadron of these ships would be perfect additions to the fleet. [ ] No - more warships
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Post by baileinneraora on Jun 14, 2019 7:17:20 GMT -6
Dear Sir,
The development of these aircraft has proved promising but they are still far from a mature technology. There are still many issues regarding reliability and range to be overcome. However, they hold much promise and unlike airships can be transported as ships. I recommend the building of a test ship to gain experience handling aircraft at sea with the potential to expand this to a several if the tests prove promising.
Captain Richard Douglas RN
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 14, 2019 9:40:59 GMT -6
"So, the right honorable member of the opposition supposes that these "float planes" would act as scouts for the fleet! No doubt an impeccable idea, what with their impressive projected Eighty Five mile range. So, all the pesky daredevil need do is get their contraption in the air, spot the enemy, send a carrier pigeon back to port with the news, and then a plucky chap will hop in a motor and whisk the news out to sea, no doubt arriving before at least half the shells have fallen. Brilliant!"
- Georg Listener, House of Commons, Labour.
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