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Post by yemo on Jun 16, 2019 18:22:21 GMT -6
1923-02 Our spy delivers information on the new US CA Rochester, currently under construction! 1923-02 BC Tourville commissioned, she surpasses her design speed of 29 knots.1923-02 Revolution in Austria-Hungary! The Kaiser has been deposed! In the ensuing peace deal, we claim the Austrian BC Vorarlberg, due to her high speed of 28knots and triple turret config.
She is renamed BC Vosges. Dalmatia is now controlled by France. Our naval budget is about half of what it was during wartime. Only BC Dunkerque and BC Duquesne are still under construction (20 months left). The former BC Vorarlberg is not a bad ship, though her 11'' guns make her less of a BC and more akin to the new US CAs. Though we could change her triple 11'' to double 15''. But we also have to consolidate our budget. Enhanced training costs a lot. And we could satisfy most of our foreign station requirements with hordes of cheap destroyers, instead of obsolete 25knot CLs. Though the AI is building various new CLs again, and the US is even building CAs!
Suggestions?
edit:
Plus 48 Yatagan class ASW DDs (600 tons, 27knots, 9maintenance) and 23 Ondite and Elorn class KE minesweepers (600tons, 24knots, 9 maintenance). Enough to fill up quite a lot of foreign tonnage.
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Post by vasious on Jun 16, 2019 18:45:30 GMT -6
The outcome of the French Emperors vs Austrian Kaiser was quite the omen
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Post by yemo on Jun 16, 2019 19:03:00 GMT -6
The outcome of the French Emperors vs Austrian Kaiser was quite the omen Yep, I was already wondering how the Austrians managed to stay in the war so long. I chose to prolong the war as much as possible when asked about peace talks, to keep the budget high and thus the research strong enough to make some ground towards the US and the far ahead British. But considering that they were blockaded for so long, it took them quite some time to collapse.
Decided to put the end of the war in two parts, after that last battle. A fitting end for the war!
Quite a few construction zones left until the end of my tenure. I would have loved to leave a more balanced fleet to my successor. Especially the cruisers are very neglected. No aircraft carrier except the token prototype one, all CAs and CLs too slow and the CLs in need of a refit (or scrapping?).
That is something I seriously consider, letting the Yatagan DDs do the foreign station work. They are cheap and provide good invasion deterrence (since one 600ton DD is 1 fleet point), but are useless in any actual battle.
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Post by gimlet on Jun 16, 2019 19:33:29 GMT -6
You can actually cut advanced training until tensions are back up, that can save a year of payments easily (you don't need it against AH or Italy, or probably Japan. Any of the other 3, restart when tensions rise with them if ever). Mothball/RF to the max, leave best BB or BC and 4-6 destroyers on AF plus obviously whatever you need for FS. That should get your monthly balance back near 0 so you can keep building the BC which you need pretty badly. Decide who you want to beat up next and raise intel on them, probably Italy again? One of the punching bags of the Med. In about 5 years refit those older and smaller destroyers to carry mines (I presume you're keeping them around for ASW work, so K guns too you should get them soon. Reduce secondary guns or torpedoes to fit if you need to). IMO your exiting CL are adequate for FS/fleet scouting/support for a few more years. In maybe 5-7 years if you want you can trickle in a few new fleet CL. Add AA guns to everything when you refit. After the BC are done do at least 1 round of BB, yours are getting longish in the tooth. You could try to fit a carrier in if that's the way you want to go, you probably ought to start at least 1-2 within 5 years or so. Or build/convert some CVL for CAP. Voralberg, eh. That must have taken AH a while to build if it still has coal in a 1918 ship Even so I wouldn't redo the machinery - I wouldn't spend much on it, maybe 10% tops IF you decide to keep it around. If not, mothball it as a stopgap for a few years, only if it looks like you will need it be ready to fix fire control and maybe add some AA. If you do want to use it for a few years yeah I would do the 15" guns, up the ammo at least a little, get rid of the torpedo tubes (you don't want to be getting close to anything in that anymore), and keep it away from modern BC.
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Post by aeson on Jun 16, 2019 20:06:07 GMT -6
I don't see Vosges/ex-Vorarlberg as worth keeping except perhaps as a future carrier conversion. You won't want it in a fight with enemy battlecruisers and it's a fairly uneconomical counter to something like the American Rochester-class heavy cruisers; the only thing it has going for it is that you already have it.
As to the idea of refitting it with 15" guns, why? Four 15" guns is probably better against modern capital ships than the current six 11" guns, but it's still a pretty light armament for a capital ship at this stage of the game, the ship is a bit lightly armored for engaging capital ships, and the 11" guns ought to be good enough against cruisers. Plus, it'd be a fairly expensive refit for a ship that'd still be pretty weak after reconstruction.
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Post by dorn on Jun 17, 2019 1:07:44 GMT -6
I think you need to find budget for your 2 battlecruisers in construction.
With tension quite low that war is not expected within next 2 years, I think you can do certain things. First question is what can be next enemy and how you can handle them: - USA/UK - you cannot beat them by numbers, so any old ship you have is your weakness - Japan - with only 4 battlecruisers having 5 capital ships (Touville, 2 x Dunkerque, 2x Napoleon) is much better anything Japanese have and they cannot blockade you so having a little less but better ships is not disadvantage. - Italy - all theirs battleship and battlecruiser are completely inferior to your modern ships so your old ships is not needed - A-H - no fleet to worry about - Germany - their battleships are all absolote, their battlecruisers too except Derfflinger class and Prinz Eitel Friedrich with their high speed but there is still nothing to worry about
Scrap:
Both Ocean class battleship (they are absolote): 132k Both Austerlitz (too slow) - 734k Vorarlberg (too expensive and very weak) - 277k
Save on training: 1455k
TOTAL savings 2598k New balance: -2504k This gives you enough budget to complete both battlecruisers without delay.
After that I would consider: - new CVL about 10000-12000 tons with at least 27 knots
- new CLs - this is area where you are quite behind (as it is 2 years ahead)
Meantime you should make decision: a) build overseas b) build by home shipyards - in this case it would be necessary to focus on light forces (no other high priority except may be AP and FC, and most on low priority as you are quite behind, just compere it with my situation in 1927 and you are 4 years behind but 5 technologies, just too much, may be variant a) is the righ choice)
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Post by yemo on Jun 17, 2019 5:48:38 GMT -6
The thing about Vorarlberg is, that she probably could match a last generation german or italian ship while having good speed, for the price of a light cruiser.
Everyone except the British seem to be behind in the tech game, and we even have some advantages over the US now.
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Post by dorn on Jun 17, 2019 5:59:30 GMT -6
The thing about Vorarlberg is, that she probably could match a last generation german or italian ship while having good speed, for the price of a light cruiser. Everyone except the British seem to be behind in the tech game, and we even have some advantages over the US now. She is better only than Von der Tann, Moltke class is slower but more powerfull. Lepanto class (the oldest battlecruiser) is more powerfull but slower.
Even in RF this ship costs you 3.3M per year. Is it worth it? But similar is Amiral Charner class.
But main point is that before next war you will have 3 excellent battlecruisers, nothing more is needed. Each of these battlecruisers can handle 2 german battlecruisers having superior firepower and protection by large margin.
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Post by aeson on Jun 17, 2019 6:52:54 GMT -6
The thing about Vorarlberg is, that she probably could match a last generation german or italian ship while having good speed, for the price of a light cruiser. Vosges/ex-Vorarlberg costs 554k a turn in home waters in the Active Fleet in peacetime. That's almost six times what one of your Chasseloup Laubat-class light cruisers costs under the same conditions (94k/turn).
As to matching a last-generation German or Italian battlecruiser... ... No, I don't think so. Italy and Germany both have 13"/Q0 guns available in their shipyards, so there's a real possibility that at least some of the German and Italian ships use them, and Vosges has very little resistance to a 13"/Q0. Meanwhile, the little information available in the Almanac says that even Umbria is likely fairly resistant to Vosges's 11" guns beyond about 14,000 yards while against Derfflinger or Prinz Eitel Friedrich you'd need to close to within 9,000 yards to penetrate the armor belt. Unless the guns on Moltke, Derfflinger, Lepanto and Umbria are bad, these are ships that seriously out-class Vosges - they're probably significantly better armored against the 11"/Q0 guns carried by Vosges than Vosges is against their guns, their 13" guns hit harder than the 11" guns carried by Vosges, they carry six or eight 13" guns in three or four twin turrets to the six 11" guns carried by Vosges in two triple turrets, and even the smallest of them isn't that much smaller than Vosges so they're likely capable of absorbing at least similar amounts of damage.
The only thing Vosges really has going for it is that it's faster than Moltke and Lepanto. Refitting Vosges with 15" guns might help a bit, but the ship still won't have much of any resistance to the 13" guns its German and Italian counterparts carry, the main battery turret armor will be marginal unless you go in for a much more expensive refit than the minimum to upgun the ship, and the throw weight for four 15" guns is only about as much as the throw weight for six 13" guns so most of the German and Italian ships would probably still have a higher damage potential on each broadside.
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Post by yemo on Jun 17, 2019 9:47:49 GMT -6
Sorry, was on mobile and short on words.
That is what I had in mind to match older german and italian BCs, 2x2x15/0 rebuild in Britain with improved director for ~21500 rebuild costs. Not great, but at least she is not too slow.
While I would personally be ok with 3 BB/BCs - Tourville (though she needs AA) and the two Dunkerques - I have to plan this as a succession game. I will most likely not see another battle and other people have different strategies/tastes.
Therefore I ll likely keep the two Austerlitz classes mothballed as well. They could be made more useful by decreasing the ammo count and up armoring the deck and then bring 6x14/-1 to a battle. Even though I have the time to do so, I lack the funds at the moment, as the two new BCs have priority. ~3k is an ok price to leave my successor this option. Though I would really like to reclassify them as BBs, so that they simply trail the battleline instead of accepting cruiser battles...
Yeah, the Ocean class simply has not enough turret armor (10''), even against the german and italian ships. It would cost too much to correct this (US rebuild, 13/+1 guns instead of 14/-1 and then better turret armor) given their 22knot speed without any torpedo protection.
And while I would personally scrap most of the Chasseloup Laubat and use cheap DDs for foreign stations, Italy has 54 active subs, so the DDs would be needed there. So I guess the oldest 4 CL Chasseloup Laubat need an urgent rebuild, before scraping the 15 year deadline which increases their maintenance. To stay available for foreign station duty. Not sure how to rebuild, I do not want to invest a lot in them.
It really irks me that there will be no modern cruiser or even CVL when I pass the torch. But with the Chasseloup Laubat refits and maybe even the BC Vosges rebuild, France is already short on cash.
edit: Maybe some small AV project, the AI seems to build them as well.
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Post by aeson on Jun 17, 2019 10:45:17 GMT -6
Director fire control and maybe a couple light AA guns. Quick and fairly cheap; if you really want to cut costs, then take one of the fire control positions off during the rebuild. If you don't want to get rid of Vosges because you're concerned about what your successors might want, then put it into mothballs and let them deal with it. You don't have the funds for a 21.5M rebuild unless you pause one of the Dunkerques, and if I were your successor I'd much rather have a Dunkerque than a rebuilt Vosges.
Also, Vosges is going to be a bad battlecruiser even if you rebuild it with 15" guns - it's not particularly fast, its armor is fairly light, and four 15" guns is a fairly light armament for a ship as big as Vosges at this stage of the game. The only potentially-good reason I see to keep it in the fleet is that it wouldn't be any real loss to convert it into a carrier when you get the tech to do so, and at 28 knots it might not be a bad carrier going into the 1930s and maybe 1940s, if you can stick enough planes on it.
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Post by gimlet on Jun 17, 2019 13:38:29 GMT -6
Yeah, F21million? I did not realize it would be that much, yeah way too much, it's maybe worth 10 absolute tops imo. I would mothball it until a new BC is near finishing, and yeah maybe as a CV conversion. Also make sure you keep enough tonnage, mothballed is fine (in fact preferred), to blockade at least Italy while leaving a few ships in Europe. If/when tensions are getting mid-yellowish, refit with best fire controls and some AA, capital ships first priority. Similar with the Austerlitzes, if you are fighting a European opponent keep them in the Med to at least draw any cruiser/BC battles there, and opposite vs a Med opponent.
And ugh I would think long and hard before spending a similar amount per Austerlitz to do any kind of upgrade. Fire control/AA refits only and use only in an emergency or secondary theater. And scrap as soon as the new BC arrive.
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Post by dorn on Jun 17, 2019 13:51:57 GMT -6
I have found that TDS is most important defence system on carrier. This is main reason I do not like conversions.
But it could be good solution as conversion does not cost too much - I was quite suprised.
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Post by yemo on Jun 17, 2019 15:28:14 GMT -6
aeson : Ah, yes, only one FC position makes the refit considerably cheaper. And those ships are not intended for fights anyway. I looked at a possible CV conversion, and it only yielded 32 planes (though spot value of 30). But it could be useful for the 8inch first carrier requirements. Some sort of weird hybrid, with 25planes (for the CV identification) and then lightly armored 8 inch guns, for 10m.
The Austerlitz refits would cost about 10m, including additional deck armor, improved director (which is not cheap) and some 3'' DP tertiary battery. Blockade is a good argument, I ll keep the ships with possible use (Austerlitz) mothballed.
Yeah, the 32 plane conversion would be pretty cheap, though I would need the 8x8 first carrier requirement done before that.
I think that makes up a good strategy. Scrapping Ocean class, mothball Napoleon class until rising tensions,
mothball Austerlitz class and BC Vosges until a use can be found, BC Tourville stays in active service,
Amiral Charner is worth 8000+ foreign station tons, mothball or South Pacific,
quick refit of the 4 oldest Chasseloup Laubat CLs, then mothball, mothball other Chasseloup Laubat CLs, Amiral Cecille CVL stays in active service,
mothball Javeline and Pertusiane class DDs, Framee class DDs stay in active service,
cheap ASW DDs and some minesweepers to foreign service.
So only BC Tourville, perhaps Amiral Charner (not cost efficient vs DDs, but not too bad) and a bunch of DDs/KEs stay active. And of course CVL Amiral Cecille, to be able to ramp up carrier research, and because she has 7 battlestars.
Scrap Dalmatian airbases (I wonder where all those 11inch batteries went which guarded the Dalmatian coast), stop training until tensions ramp up again.
I m not convinced that the research direction should be changed.
We are not far away from the US capabilities in general and in some aspects we are even more advanced (double turrets on CLs, superimposed front DD turret, secondary director).
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Post by aeson on Jun 17, 2019 16:24:31 GMT -6
aeson : Ah, yes, only one FC position makes the refit considerably cheaper. And those ships are not intended for fights anyway. I looked at a possible CV conversion, and it only yielded 32 planes (though spot value of 30). But it could be useful for the 8inch first carrier requirements. Some sort of weird hybrid, with 25planes (for the CV identification) and then lightly armored 8 inch guns, for 10m. If it's only ~32 planes tops (or at a reasonable cost, anyways), I'd either get rid of it or only use it to take care of the requirement for the first big carrier to have 8" guns. Be aware that half or so of the total fleet tonnage has to be on AF, FS, or RF or the game won't let you end turn, so you might need to keep a few more ships outside of mothballs than this plan would have.
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