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Post by christian on Jun 15, 2019 8:20:53 GMT -6
you should be able to mount additional torpedo protection on ships in refit although there should be a limit for classes
for example light cruisers could get tp 1 added max while ca could get 2 added and battleships and carriers could get up to tp 3 added
we see torpedo protection improvements in refits quite a bit in the form of torpedo bulges in real life
it also gives an incentive to refit your old battleships so they dont get sunk by one or 2 torpedo hits
you should loose speed depending on how much tp you mount 1 knot per tp level might be adequate
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Post by aeson on Jun 15, 2019 9:07:38 GMT -6
You can already add torpedo bulges in a refit.
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Post by stevethecat on Jun 15, 2019 10:03:53 GMT -6
You can already add torpedo bulges in a refit. Bulges yes, but does the game include them as a torpedo defence? Would be nice to now what effect they have...
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Post by tbr on Jun 15, 2019 10:12:03 GMT -6
You can already add torpedo bulges in a refit. Bulges yes, but does the game include them as a torpedo defence? Would be nice to now what effect they have... Torpedo bulges are effectively equivalent to a +2 to the TP level. Changing TP level itself in refits would be counterfactual though. "TPS" in this timeframe is a complex arrangement of armor, vent spaces etc within a ship's hull, there are historical examples of 7m+ "depth" (from the side of the hull) of a TPS. This is not something that can be retrofitted.
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Post by dizzy on Jun 15, 2019 13:21:27 GMT -6
Notice when you Open Design to get the 10% design change and you increase TP a level higher, you lose any design discount. That's because that ship has to be designed with TP built from the Keel up. You can always add bulge to the design, but you can redo the guts of the ship to compartmentalize it against more sophisticated torpedo attacks. Gotta be done from the start.
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Post by christian on Jun 15, 2019 16:01:15 GMT -6
Bulges yes, but does the game include them as a torpedo defence? Would be nice to now what effect they have... Torpedo bulges are effectively equivalent to a +2 to the TP level. Changing TP level itself in refits would be counterfactual though. "TPS" in this timeframe is a complex arrangement of armor, vent spaces etc within a ship's hull, there are historical examples of 7m+ "depth" (from the side of the hull) of a TPS. This is not something that can be retrofitted. got any source to that +2 tp because my retrofitted bb almost sunk after a single torpedo hit with bulges (it had 1 tp before) and it barely escaped with 70% flooding
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Post by christian on Jun 15, 2019 16:26:08 GMT -6
Notice when you Open Design to get the 10% design change and you increase TP a level higher, you lose any design discount. That's because that ship has to be designed with TP built from the Keel up. You can always add bulge to the design, but you can redo the guts of the ship to compartmentalize it against more sophisticated torpedo attacks. Gotta be done from the start. you dont redo compartments you add compartments on top of what you already have notice the outer walls (torpedo protection) is mostly empty with 4 seperating walls making for what seems to be 4 long compartments (though with some bulkheads in them i imagine) (in the bottom image) what you can easily do is add another layer from bulges which will increase torpedo protection i.imgur.com/mkBozSc.jpgvisible in this photo of the fuso you can see that post refit an extra bulge of 13 mm overwater 19mm underwater was added to not only protect against torpedoes but also make the ship float better it can also be seen on nagato (i dont have a cutaway so real life pics will do) upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Japanese_Battleship_Nagato_1944.jpgwith torpedo bulges www.1999.co.jp/itbig16/10160947b.jpgwithout torpedo bulges i.imgur.com/o8YGEFj.jpgwith torpedo bulges again upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Fuso_Mitajiri.jpgfuso without torpedo bulges i.imgur.com/qreW7PD.jpgfuso with torpedo bulges (its alot less pronounced on her but they are there) www.gombur.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Yamashiro.jpgyamashiro with torpedo bulges (alot more pronounced bulges on her) i.imgur.com/vMAo49b.jpgfuso torpedo bulges again this time you can see how big they are as i have shown it was not uncommon for ships to recieve significant torpedo protection in refits (cruisers such as furutaka also recieved it same goes with mogami although these were mostly for stability and flotation but nevertheless helped against torpedoes) Attachments:
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Post by dizzy on Jun 15, 2019 16:52:11 GMT -6
Ok, christian, How do you represent that in game? Like Deck armor, can you add a TP per refit? I'm so not the expert here, but if historically ships were able to be retrofitted with better TP, why not?
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Post by tbr on Jun 15, 2019 18:02:03 GMT -6
Torpedo bulges are effectively equivalent to a +2 to the TP level. Changing TP level itself in refits would be counterfactual though. "TPS" in this timeframe is a complex arrangement of armor, vent spaces etc within a ship's hull, there are historical examples of 7m+ "depth" (from the side of the hull) of a TPS. This is not something that can be retrofitted. got any source to that +2 tp because my retrofitted bb almost sunk after a single torpedo hit with bulges (it had 1 tp before) and it barely escaped with 70% flooding That is from deep in the old-old discussion on RTW1...
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Post by dizzy on Jun 15, 2019 19:19:12 GMT -6
Oh, well if this was discussed in RTW1, I'm going to kindly show myself to the door. I don't want to inject my ignorant ideas into a topic I'm unwilling to read 14 pages of posts to get caught up. I defer to the previous experts on the matter..
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Post by aeson on Jun 15, 2019 20:14:10 GMT -6
my retrofitted bb almost sunk after a single torpedo hit with bulges (it had 1 tp before) and it barely escaped with 70% flooding And I have on very rare occasions lost ships with TP4 to a single torpedo hit in Rule the Waves 1. Bad luck happens and a single data point is virtually meaningless - all the more so when the data point does not contain sufficient information to allow it to be compared to any other data point in a meaningful way.
Also, total accumulated flotation damage - especially expressed as a percentage, because 70% flotation damage on a 5,000t cruiser is not the same as 70% flotation damage on a 50,000t battleship - is a very poor way to compare the quality of one torpedo protection system to another, because you're clouding the issue by introducing a lot of factors other than just the torpedo protection system and the torpedo that hit the ship. Just off the top of my head, factors affecting the flotation damage accumulated by the end of a battle include:
- Initial rate of flooding (torpedo protection system, torpedo that hit the ship). - The rate at and extent to which flooding is controlled (crew quality, speed of the ship, weather, other battle damage, damage control and subdivision tech level, luck*; probably also whether or not the ship is burning and whether or not the ship is actively engaged; possibly also the inbuilt torpedo protection system). - Time left in the battle after taking the hit, or at least that it takes the ship to reach port after being hit (location of the engagement, what possessions and therefore what ports you have in the area, speed at which your ship steams to port, whether you went for the closest port or were forced to head for a more distant port due to the relative positions of the ports and fleets).
*There are two flooding rates in the game: controllable flooding rate, and progressive (uncontrollable) flooding rate. Hits and events that cause flooding typically cause controllable flooding with maybe a couple points of progressive flooding, but whereas controllable flooding can be reduced all the way to 0 by damage control events during the scenario, progressive flooding cannot - to the best of my knowledge - be reduced by any means short of cheating. If a ship is in a battle long enough after taking a hit that caused progressive flooding, it's entirely plausible that that ship will accumulate more flotation damage than a similar ship that had a lower rate of progressive flooding and a higher initial rate of flooding. Which hit is worse - the one that causes 200 flooding, all of which is controllable, or the hit that causes 60 flooding, ten of which is progressive? 200 is a bigger number than 60, so it'll certainly be worse initially ... but if it's all controllable then a good enough crew can reduce it to zero before too long whereas the flooding from the latter hit is never going to be reduced below 10 no matter how good the crew is or how long the scenario goes on, and while 10 flooding probably isn't immediately dangerous to anything larger than a destroyer, it keeps adding up as long as the scenario goes on.
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Post by dorn on Jun 16, 2019 1:23:04 GMT -6
I just remind the first torpedo hit to POW in area outside TDS. After this hit one of officers restarted shaft bringing PoW instantly almost in sinking condition. TDS of PoW in game would be represented by lvl 4.
You can easily what just one torpedo did.
Simulation in game is quite accurate as some of hits do almost nothing, some of hits have devasteting effect.
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Post by christian on Jun 16, 2019 4:52:06 GMT -6
my retrofitted bb almost sunk after a single torpedo hit with bulges (it had 1 tp before) and it barely escaped with 70% flooding And I have on very rare occasions lost ships with TP4 to a single torpedo hit in Rule the Waves 1. Bad luck happens and a single data point is virtually meaningless - all the more so when the data point does not contain sufficient information to allow it to be compared to any other data point in a meaningful way.
Also, total accumulated flotation damage - especially expressed as a percentage, because 70% flotation damage on a 5,000t cruiser is not the same as 70% flotation damage on a 50,000t battleship - is a very poor way to compare the quality of one torpedo protection system to another, because you're clouding the issue by introducing a lot of factors other than just the torpedo protection system and the torpedo that hit the ship. Just off the top of my head, factors affecting the flotation damage accumulated by the end of a battle include:
- Initial rate of flooding (torpedo protection system, torpedo that hit the ship). - The rate at and extent to which flooding is controlled (crew quality, speed of the ship, weather, other battle damage, damage control and subdivision tech level, luck*; probably also whether or not the ship is burning and whether or not the ship is actively engaged; possibly also the inbuilt torpedo protection system). - Time left in the battle after taking the hit, or at least that it takes the ship to reach port after being hit (location of the engagement, what possessions and therefore what ports you have in the area, speed at which your ship steams to port, whether you went for the closest port or were forced to head for a more distant port due to the relative positions of the ports and fleets).
*There are two flooding rates in the game: controllable flooding rate, and progressive (uncontrollable) flooding rate. Hits and events that cause flooding typically cause controllable flooding with maybe a couple points of progressive flooding, but whereas controllable flooding can be reduced all the way to 0 by damage control events during the scenario, progressive flooding cannot - to the best of my knowledge - be reduced by any means short of cheating. If a ship is in a battle long enough after taking a hit that caused progressive flooding, it's entirely plausible that that ship will accumulate more flotation damage than a similar ship that had a lower rate of progressive flooding and a higher initial rate of flooding. Which hit is worse - the one that causes 200 flooding, all of which is controllable, or the hit that causes 60 flooding, ten of which is progressive? 200 is a bigger number than 60, so it'll certainly be worse initially ... but if it's all controllable then a good enough crew can reduce it to zero before too long whereas the flooding from the latter hit is never going to be reduced below 10 no matter how good the crew is or how long the scenario goes on, and while 10 flooding probably isn't immediately dangerous to anything larger than a destroyer, it keeps adding up as long as the scenario goes on.
ship in question being hit it was not overweight it was made in 1930 and finished in 33 and because i got better firecontrol right after they were finished i decided to retrofit them in 35/36 with bulges added on was first used in a battle in 45 against the french reasons for low tp protection is it was simply not researched but due to a prior event of a cruiser getting one tapped by a torpedo i bumped damage control up and by 1945 had tp 4 i believe it went into battle in 45 and was hit once by a torpedo and i almost lost it
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Post by christian on Jun 16, 2019 4:52:53 GMT -6
got any source to that +2 tp because my retrofitted bb almost sunk after a single torpedo hit with bulges (it had 1 tp before) and it barely escaped with 70% flooding That is from deep in the old-old discussion on RTW1... do we know if this feature is in rtw 2 ? could you link said thread if bulges does add tp2 that would be nice to know in game because that gives alot more of an incentive to add bulges to a ship
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Post by aeson on Jun 16, 2019 10:42:57 GMT -6
ship in question being hit it was not overweight it was made in 1930 and finished in 33 and because i got better firecontrol right after they were finished i decided to retrofit them in 35/36 with bulges added on was first used in a battle in 45 against the french reasons for low tp protection is it was simply not researched but due to a prior event of a cruiser getting one tapped by a torpedo i bumped damage control up and by 1945 had tp 4 i believe it went into battle in 45 and was hit once by a torpedo and i almost lost it
Did you change the design speed in the design menu you have open? A bulged ship with a 25kn plant ought to make 22 knots in service; it'd need a 28kn plant (or perhaps a 27kn plant if it exceeded design speed on trials) for a 25kn service speed. If not, are you sure you bulged the ship?
Also, your ship was probably built with 1910ish subdivision and damage control tech if you only had TP1 when you laid it down; it was probably hit by a 1945ish torpedo. That's not a healthy combination even with bulges adding to torpedo protection and great improvements to damage control tech since building the ship.
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