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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 20, 2019 3:39:52 GMT -6
This is the thread for RWT2's Canada Custom Nation mod. Updated v1.4: RTW2_Canada_v1.4.1.zip (39.86 KB) There are 2 versions to choose from: Realistic is basically same Canada from a previous version. Only changes: starting budget increased, so you can get more starting ships and early game is not so painful (only affects starting money, base resources kept same) Slightly nerfed later game growth There are issues with this version however: You only share areas with US and GB, and because of how the game works, you cannot choose other nations in tension increasing events. Also, realistic is not very fun to play because most of the time you are waiting to catch up with economic growth Therefore: In the new version, Canada will gain New Providence (to simulate Canada being interested in Turks and Caicos Islands), which adds France as a potential enemy as well as Eastern Aleutians (Purchased some island from the US or something) which adds Russia to potential opponents. Economic growth will be removed (Although you will retain a higher growth modifier early game, same as Japan) Base resources slightly increased up to parity with Japan Only having two of the strongest countries to fight as the weakest one is not fun. You can still play realistic if you preferred the old version or are uncomfortable with Canada having posessions. Special thanks to mycophobia for his contributions to the mod!
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Post by jeeweej on Jun 20, 2019 6:26:00 GMT -6
Have not tried it yet (am still at work) but few points of feedback:
Budget: same size as Japan seems a bit...ambitious? Maybe same level as Austro Hungary would be more realistic? Guns: seems fine, just put the quality of the bigger guns at -1 to begin with Research: also seems fine, radar will only be an advantage late game but it'll be a nice one Bonus techs: hmmm, in my optinion this can be one that makes or breaks a nation. You could say that as a "colony" of the UK it gets the same techs, but you could also give one or two unique ones Buffs/debuffs: Seems fine
Enemies: which nations do you plan to be the enemies of Canada?
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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 20, 2019 6:58:46 GMT -6
Budget is actually a bit lower then Japan and A/H, I think they both have 20/10. I wanted to go 12/6 but 6 seems really low, there’s basically no point to put the US or UK into the game as you’ll never stand a chance. Even if IRL Canada at that time could never afford a navy of that size it’s not fun then you lose no matter what you do. Maybe it does eventually catch up with fast growth, I don’t know yet, I’ll start testing later. Maybe I’ll lower it.
Enemies are the non-mediterranean nations.
Also I think I will add double dd mounts as a bonus tech - I think the RN started to put double mounts on dds pretty early, and this would fit into the light forces theme.
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Post by dorn on Jun 20, 2019 7:03:15 GMT -6
May be advantage ASW instead of light forces as Canada focused on corvettes during WW2.
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Post by jeeweej on Jun 20, 2019 7:14:27 GMT -6
May be advantage ASW instead of light forces as Canada focused on corvettes during WW2. This sounds like a good and somewhat historically accurate suggestion. And regarding the budget: as long as it's fun to play and somewhat balanced, I'd say: "go for it!"
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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 20, 2019 7:20:38 GMT -6
This is a pretty boring area to focus on though, just saves you a bit of money that you would otherwise spend on extra corvettes. Light forces still fit the flavour, so I’d rather keep them.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 20, 2019 10:46:10 GMT -6
As a Canadian I'm rather ashamed to say I came into this post due to the OP's name and not the thread title.
Ahem, In any case, underdeveloped ship building industry is appropriate, further, given the reluctance for Canada to make any serious investment into a navy around the turn of the century, it makes sense to have a low budget to start but coupled with a good economic growth(for both gameplay reasons and to represent the growth of shipbuilding potential of Canada in say, ww2) -
I'd almost argue inconsistent naval policy can be a worthwhile edition, though Canada naval investment around turn of the century feels more "reluctant" than "inconsistent", but suppose we treat them as being wholly independent from the UK I can see it making more sense?
Given Canada's historical importance in pilot training, if you want to give them a bit more of an edge you can arguably give them either an advance in Heavier than air aviation(but not carrier operations), or just bouns for some training related tech. Though this is more having to do with giving them a more interesting edge in game than being a hugely historical advantage. Otherwise for the most part ASW/Light force sounds about right for Canada.
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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 20, 2019 11:40:07 GMT -6
As a Canadian I'm rather ashamed to say I came into this post due to the OP's name and not the thread title. Nice I will probably add plane advantage, as it seems to fit the concept very well. My strategy in my test game so far was just to not build any capital ships, since they would be few and poor in quality anyway, and then transfer sharply into carriers. With such a tiny budget you just cant throw enough money into research to build an up to date dreadnought - I only got 3 centerline turrets in 1913. It tells a lot that when I got a tech sharing treaty with Japan, we were both backward and yet they still barely got anything out of that. The budget will probably have to get raised to at least 16/8. A budget this low only forces you to sit and wait longer until it catches up with fast growth. This should also help with research a bit. There is another problem I have. I don’t know how to make a nation have several home areas without editing the mapdata file. I thought maybe it’s not that big of a deal, but no - very first game Columbia handed me a “pro-british rebellion”. With it being value 12 it is impossible to retake it in a peace deal, and with the closest base being Alaska - I doubt invasions can even reach that far. Very unfortunate flavour fail.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 20, 2019 12:18:36 GMT -6
As a Canadian I'm rather ashamed to say I came into this post due to the OP's name and not the thread title. Nice I will probably add plane advantage, as it seems to fit the concept very well. My strategy in my test game so far was just to not build any capital ships, since they would be few and poor in quality anyway, and then transfer sharply into carriers. With such a tiny budget you just cant throw enough money into research to build an up to date dreadnought - I only got 3 centerline turrets in 1913. It tells a lot that when I got a tech sharing treaty with Japan, we were both backward and yet they still barely got anything out of that. The budget will probably have to get raised to at least 16/8. A budget this low only forces you to sit and wait longer until it catches up with fast growth. This should also help with research a bit. There is another problem I have. I don’t know how to make a nation have several home areas without editing the mapdata file. I thought maybe it’s not that big of a deal, but no - very first game Columbia handed me a “pro-british rebellion”. With it being value 12 it is impossible to retake it in a peace deal, and with the closest base being Alaska - I doubt invasions can even reach that far. Very unfortunate flavour fail. As for budget, I think its not a huge issue to exaggerate it a little bit. Canada certainly haven't spent as much as even AH in ship building. But this have to do more with them not wanting to, not that there is no money/industrial capability for that. I think small starting dockyard size and limited military tech(gun caliber) can probably represent Canada's lack of experience with military ship-building. If Canada every cut ties with British its not impossible to think they have the ability to build at least a small navy. ^That said, at the turn of the century Canadian politic basically felt that a navy is useless since the only feasible enemy power that is close enough would be US, one that Canada have no chance of beating and also probably no chance of becoming hostile to anyway. So from a purely historical perspective, Canada's budget at that start of the game should be exceedingly low, but since we are in RTW anyways its prob best to just assume that Canada now have some global ambitions of its own I don't think its possible to have several home areas(at least not in different sea zones) since that will imply your newly constructed ships can end up in one of the two areas? I am by no means skilled with modding though, so I hope someone else can better answer the question. Honestly having BC trying to break out isn't a huge deal, its either us or the Albertans , and hey, at least the pro-British part makes sense Also if possible I'd recommend you can maybe consider adding Spain as an enemy. Since without AH and presumably Italy, Canada will have a hard time picking on an early game enemy. If you are able to cooperate with the Netherland mod, the Dutch also makes for an interesting match up.
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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 20, 2019 13:05:08 GMT -6
The early game target is Japan, it is the strongest of low-budget nations but with it wasting money on battleships it cant use against you and the increased resources you should be able to win pretty early.
And it is also difficult to justify taking any of the other secondary powers out. If Russia is taken out you have one less opponent in the pacific. The french are probably the easiest to take out, but replacing them with Spain or the Netherlands, or any other minor European power just feels wrong, they might be relevant for a European or colonizing power, but not a new world power. I would consider replacing them with Brazil, or maybe something like Gran Colombia for alt-history, maybe even CSA. Potentially even having new world nations only. But these nations arent adapted for rtw2 yet, so this is a lot of work and a pretty big commitment. I would like to flesh this one out at least.
Also, there is a difference between a home area and a build area. There are nations with several home areas, like the US for example (North american east and west coast, and the carribean)
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 20, 2019 13:11:25 GMT -6
The early game target is Japan, it is the strongest of low-budget nations but with it wasting money on battleships it cant use against you and the increased resources you should be able to win pretty early. And it is also difficult to justify taking any of the other secondary powers out. If Russia is taken out you have one less opponent in the pacific. The french are probably the easiest to take out, but replacing them with Spain or the Netherlands, or any other minor European power just feels wrong, they might be relevant for a European or colonizing power, but not a new world power. I would consider replacing them with Brazil, or maybe something like Gran Colombia for alt-history, maybe even CSA. Potentially even having new world nations only. But these nations arent adapted for rtw2 yet, so this is a lot of work and a pretty big commitment. I would like to flesh out this one first at least. I typed a lengthy response and then realized that I forgot Germany existed x.x But yeah I think the current numbers are good and it makes sense to keep Russia. I'd recommend keeping France too in that case since they do have some interest in the Caribbean that can create an avenue of expansion for Canada without worrying about UK/US (Canadian naval presence had always been more focused on the Atlantic, which is why I recommended adding powers that have more Atlantic presence like Netherland/Spain)
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 20, 2019 15:12:29 GMT -6
I wouldn't be too stingy on the budget for this one. Canada had a VERY large navy in Ww2 and has a load of natural resources. I'd probably say an independent Canada could aim for France's budget rather than Japan or A-H.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 20, 2019 16:22:21 GMT -6
I wouldn't be too stingy on the budget for this one. Canada had a VERY large navy in Ww2 and has a load of natural resources. I'd probably say an independent Canada could aim for France's budget rather than Japan or A-H. I don't know if its possible to scale economic growth at different rates or only one same rate with "rapid economic growth", but ideally I see an independent Canada as being not very rich in 1900, have horrendous warship building facility and technology. But they should have rapid growth/wartime budget hike that bring them more quickly to French level if needed. But also worth noting that Canada did receive no small amount of ships that are constructed in US/UK, and just being manned by Canadians, so the Canadian navy's actual size at end off ww2 does not fully reflect the Canadian building capability(which were still respectable). Although I do note that this also have to do with the fact that Canadian yards, even when mobilized for WW2, still aren't very proficient at building larger crafts like cruisers and CVEs. But anyways looking good so far, might try to get a game going this weekend and see how things goes. Couple things I'll note tho. The Maple leaf flag is not adopted until 1965, and there were several alternatives that was planned. That said, if Canada is independent by 1900 I don't have a huge issue with the flag being used early. A lot of ship names are still tied to UK, I can try to cook up a Canadian-ish ship name list to add a bit more flavour to independent Canada. (Or you change the flag to Quebec's and copy paste the French namelist xD ) Edit:
So regarding the Ship Naming Schemes, I have two system in mind and I'd like some opinions on which system feels better before I start working on one. Plan A : -Use mostly Modern Naming Scheme, but use name relative to importance of ship rather than class (E.G Modern DD names used by BBs, modern patrol vessel for cruisers) BB- Provinces and Territories of Canada BC- Prominent First Nations CV- Major Canadian Battles ? (May be problematic since a lot of it is WW1/WW2) CVL- Animals of Significance CA- Major Cities CL- Towns DD- Village/First Nations Bands KE- Prominent Canadians/Village SS- District of Cities? (After Chicoutimi, alternatively just maintain British scheme) Plan B: Keep British naming scheme but remove all royal references/reference to other colonies (Or Keep all of them?), Use modern naming scheme for smaller vessal -> I might also keep some British scheme for Cruisers etc, to make the list longer, and also inconsideration of the fact that Canada by 1900 will still likely use naming schemes heavily influenced by the British even if Independent. BB/BC/CV/CVL - As British ->Tho I may still consider using animal names for CVL CA- Provinces/Provincial Capital CL - Major Cities DD- Towns/First Nations KE- Prominent Canadians/Village SS- As British
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 20, 2019 17:05:30 GMT -6
I wouldn't be too stingy on the budget for this one. Canada had a VERY large navy in Ww2 and has a load of natural resources. I'd probably say an independent Canada could aim for France's budget rather than Japan or A-H. I don't know if its possible to scale economic growth at different rates or only one same rate with "rapid economic growth", but ideally I see an independent Canada as being not very rich in 1900, have horrendous warship building facility and technology. But they should have rapid growth/wartime budget hike that bring them more quickly to French level if needed. But also worth noting that Canada did receive no small amount of ships that are constructed in US/UK, and just being manned by Canadians, so the Canadian navy's actual size at end off ww2 does not fully reflect the Canadian building capability(which were still respectable). Although I do note that this also have to do with the fact that Canadian yards, even when mobilized for WW2, still aren't very proficient at building larger crafts like cruisers and CVEs. But anyways looking good so far, might try to get a game going this weekend and see how things goes. Couple things I'll note tho. The Maple leaf flag is not adopted until 1965, and there were several alternatives that was planned. That said, if Canada is independent by 1900 I don't have a huge issue with the flag being used early. A lot of ship names are still tied to UK, I can try to cook up a Canadian-ish ship name list to add a bit more flavour to independent Canada. (Or you change the flag to Quebec's and copy paste the French namelist xD ) Edit:
So regarding the Ship Naming Schemes, I have two system in mind and I'd like some opinions on which system feels better before I start working on one. Plan A : -Use mostly Modern Naming Scheme, but use name relative to importance of ship rather than class (E.G Modern DD names used by BBs, modern patrol vessel for cruisers) BB- Provinces and Territories of Canada BC- Prominent First Nations CV- Major Canadian Battles ? (May be problematic since a lot of it is WW1/WW2) CVL- Animals of Significance CA- Major Cities CL- Towns DD- Village/First Nations Bands KE- Prominent Canadians/Village SS- District of Cities? (After Chicoutimi, alternatively just maintain British scheme) Plan B: Keep British naming scheme but remove all royal references/reference to other colonies (Or Keep all of them?), Use modern naming scheme for smaller vessal -> I might also keep some British scheme for Cruisers etc, to make the list longer, and also inconsideration of the fact that Canada by 1900 will still likely use naming schemes heavily influenced by the British even if Independent. BB/BC/CV/CVL - As British ->Tho I may still consider using animal names for CVL CA- Provinces/Provincial Capital CL - Major Cities DD- Towns/First Nations KE- Prominent Canadians/Village SS- As British If you have the backstory of Canada becoming independent in the late 1800s, you can feasibly use a lot of the old War of 1812 names for battles. Any non-imperial British names (Invincible, Indefatigable etc) could also be used. Animal names are a good idea for types with fewer ships ie CV/Ls and AVs. I'd recommend some native names as well.
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Post by Laffey Chan on Jun 21, 2019 0:38:07 GMT -6
But they should have rapid growth/wartime budget hike that bring them more quickly to French level if needed. This is probably not possible to do. There was a discussion of adding something like that to the us, but I dont think they ever did. And for the name list - I will probably mostly keep carrier names, and rework the rest as you said.
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