|
Post by lrodgy on Jun 30, 2019 14:46:54 GMT -6
I've had dive bombers with 2,000lb loads before, usually by '48 or so, although it seems a bit more common for them to have 2x1,500lb a lot of the time. I've literally never even seen a DB with 2x anything, they all maxed out at 1x1000lb pre-1.05, even with bomb load being the number 1 priority, always. Here is an example of my early 1969 japan game currently ongoing. The game was started and played solely on 1.05b. Again, bomb load is the number one priority, with toughness being secondary.
|
|
|
Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 30, 2019 15:39:35 GMT -6
Something must have changed then, for I do recall seeing aircraft with multiple ordnance loads. I will see if I can find out if this was deliberate or a byproduct of some other programming change.
|
|
|
Post by aeson on Jun 30, 2019 16:07:02 GMT -6
Something must have changed then, for I do recall seeing aircraft with multiple ordnance loads. I will see if I can find out if this was deliberate or a byproduct of some other programming change. I have a torpedo bomber that can carry 2x2000lb bombs and a couple others that can carry 2x1000lbs or 2x1400lb at heavy load, but I don't think I've seen a dive bomber with more than one bomb at any load yet.
Also have a bunch of medium bombers and flying boats that can carry two or four 2000lb bombs at heavy load and a fighter that can carry a 2000lb bomb despite me not asking for it.
|
|
|
Post by christian on Jun 30, 2019 16:49:49 GMT -6
Not with my 7" decks. "Was that someone dropping a spanner, lieutenant?" "No sir, it was a 1400lb AP bomb" "Oh. What's for breakfast today then?" A 1600 lb AP bomb when dropped by a dive bomber will typically completely penetrate about 5.5" (+-) of armor, so 7 inches of deck will usually reduce the below-decks damage by a rather significant degree, yes.
You could however get a partial penetration in uncommon cases, and of course with the listed deck armor being the maximum 'through' armor thickness it is possible to hit a location that is not quite as well protected if you are (un)lucky. i dont think thats true due to what i have seen i had seen a 1000 lb sap bomb penetrate 5.5 inches of deck armor and detonate in the engine room also in not a single game since 1.00 have i A had a divebomber with 1500 lb + bomb load B had multiple bombs on a divebomber getting 1400 is possible but 1500 lb DEPENDS INTIRELY on luck and only in 1 our of my 3 total playthroughs (1900 to 1970) have i had a 1500 lb option for my divebombers if this result from a SAP BOMB is not some bug then deck armor to resist bombs is basically useless also sap bombs would be overperforming by atleast twice what they did irl (picture is from a friends playthrough and was dropped by a flying boat) Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by dorn on Jun 30, 2019 17:21:52 GMT -6
A 1600 lb AP bomb when dropped by a dive bomber will typically completely penetrate about 5.5" (+-) of armor, so 7 inches of deck will usually reduce the below-decks damage by a rather significant degree, yes.
You could however get a partial penetration in uncommon cases, and of course with the listed deck armor being the maximum 'through' armor thickness it is possible to hit a location that is not quite as well protected if you are (un)lucky. i dont think thats true due to what i have seen i had seen a 1000 lb sap bomb penetrate 5.5 inches of deck armor and detonate in the engine room also in not a single game since 1.00 have i A had a divebomber with 1500 lb + bomb load B had multiple bombs on a divebomber getting 1400 is possible but 1500 lb DEPENDS INTIRELY on luck and only in 1 our of my 3 total playthroughs (1900 to 1970) have i had a 1500 lb option for my divebombers if this result from a SAP BOMB is not some bug then deck armor to resist bombs is basically useless also sap bombs would be overperforming by atleast twice what they did irl (picture is from a friends playthrough and was dropped by a flying boat) Was it delivered by dive bombing or level bombing. I would expect that by level bombing hit is very unlikely but can penetrate such armour.
And there is probably some random in some cases even 1500 lb AP bomb do not penetrate 5.5" of deck armour.
Eg: - 1500 lb bomb Engine room hit D (Typhoon D from CV Victorious, AP) - 5.5" deck
|
|
|
Post by christian on Jun 30, 2019 17:26:12 GMT -6
i dont think thats true due to what i have seen i had seen a 1000 lb sap bomb penetrate 5.5 inches of deck armor and detonate in the engine room also in not a single game since 1.00 have i A had a divebomber with 1500 lb + bomb load B had multiple bombs on a divebomber getting 1400 is possible but 1500 lb DEPENDS INTIRELY on luck and only in 1 our of my 3 total playthroughs (1900 to 1970) have i had a 1500 lb option for my divebombers if this result from a SAP BOMB is not some bug then deck armor to resist bombs is basically useless also sap bombs would be overperforming by atleast twice what they did irl (picture is from a friends playthrough and was dropped by a flying boat) Was it deliver by dive bombing or level bombing. I would expect that by level bombing hit is very unlikely but can penetrate such armour.
And there is probably some random in some cases even 1500 lb AP bomb do not penetrate 5.5" of deck armour.
Eg: - 1500 lb bomb Engine room hit D (Typhoon D from CV Victorious, AP) - 5.5" deck
delivered by a flying boat altitude was not stated also its a sap bomb not an ap bomb the american 1000lb bomb was rated 5 inches and was an ARMOR PIERCING BOMB this is a 1000 lb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING bomb which penned more than an in real life ap bomb is rated to
|
|
|
Post by williammiller on Jun 30, 2019 19:28:47 GMT -6
Bomb penetration is not a "every bomb hit of Type X and Mass Y dropped at Height Z will have the same effective penetration on each hit against every target". The variance can be rather significant, as a number of factors can affect this (quality can vary from bomb lot to bomb lot, striking angle makes a significant difference, etc). Armor is also not a 100% panacea to penetration, even if the 'book value' makes it appear so - again, it is not equally thick on every location (the listed thickness is the maximum thickness), and there can be a good degree of random variation (taken into account in the bomb penetration variance ranges) that accounts for a number of other variables, such as for striking less (or more) well supported armor sections & other factors.
Thanks...I'm now back to bed with my fever and aches...I apologize if I seem snippy, I'm under the weather.
|
|
|
Post by seriousstrategygamer on Jul 1, 2019 2:19:25 GMT -6
Get well soon! Personally, I always use mixed groups and send in the Dive Bombers first. They cause some damage, slowing the enemy down so that the torpedo bombers have an easier time. In particular I have seen many many turret being taken out by DBs.
|
|
|
Post by Fredrik W on Jul 1, 2019 3:01:10 GMT -6
Was it deliver by dive bombing or level bombing. I would expect that by level bombing hit is very unlikely but can penetrate such armour.
And there is probably some random in some cases even 1500 lb AP bomb do not penetrate 5.5" of deck armour.
Eg: - 1500 lb bomb Engine room hit D (Typhoon D from CV Victorious, AP) - 5.5" deck
delivered by a flying boat altitude was not stated also its a sap bomb not an ap bomb the american 1000lb bomb was rated 5 inches and was an ARMOR PIERCING BOMB this is a 1000 lb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING bomb which penned more than an in real life ap bomb is rated to Flying boats use level bombing. Bombs from level bombing are released at higher altitude and in RTW2 have better penetration than bombs dropped by dive bombing, though accuracy is of course much reduced. The most devastating attacks in the game are with heavy guided AP bombs. The have both good accuracy and powerful penetration.
|
|
|
Post by christian on Jul 1, 2019 6:33:00 GMT -6
delivered by a flying boat altitude was not stated also its a sap bomb not an ap bomb the american 1000lb bomb was rated 5 inches and was an ARMOR PIERCING BOMB this is a 1000 lb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING bomb which penned more than an in real life ap bomb is rated to Flying boats use level bombing. Bombs from level bombing are released at higher altitude and in RTW2 have better penetration than bombs dropped by dive bombing, though accuracy is of course much reduced. The most devastating attacks in the game are with heavy guided AP bombs. The have both good accuracy and powerful penetration. main problem is not that AP bombs of that size can pen decks my problem is what actually penned the deck ARMOR PIERCING BOMBS should be able to go through this kind of armor SEMI ARMOR PIERCING SHOULD NOTstill giving a 1000 lb SAP bomb 5.5 inches of penetration is a bit extreme Mark 33, introduced in October 1942, which weighed 1000 lbs (454kg) of which 150 lbs (68 kg) was high explosive. The Mark 33 could penetrate a 5" deck from 10,000' (3050m) or from 6500' (1980m) when dropped from a dive bomber in a 300 knot 60 degree dive. unless they somehow made a SAP BOMB perform better than an armor piercing bomb i have no idea what the hell is going on an ap bomb should be capable of going through 5.5 inches of armor thats fine but a sap bomb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING should not "The most devastating attacks in the game are with heavy guided AP bombs."
except somehow a 1000 lb sap bomb managed to go through 5.5 inches of deck armor and considering its a sap bomb contained quite a bit more explosive filler if we were dealing with an actual armor piercing bomb i could accept that but a semi armour piercing bomb no Out of a total weight of 800 kg (1760 lbs), the bomb had a charge of just 23 kg (50 pounds) of Type 91 explosive. The Type 99 was judged capable of penetrating 5.75" (146mm) of deck armor when dropped from a height of 10,000 feet (3000m). unless they somehow managed to get a sap bomb of doom which can penetrate SLIGHTLY less armor 0.25 inches less armor than a 1760 lb armor piercing bomb which was made to punch through armor
|
|
rdfox
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by rdfox on Jul 1, 2019 7:49:42 GMT -6
Historically, the other advantage of dive bombers was their effectiveness at suppressing or destroying the enemy's antiaircraft guns before the torpedo bombers attempted their attack runs. Even late-war torpedo bombing setups (like the USN's combination of the entirely-unfair TBF with the late-mod Mark 13 torpedo that had a drop envelope of "yes") still required relatively low, slow, and straight approaches to the drop point, leaving the TBs particularly vulnerable to AA; even if your dive bombers can't penetrate the deck armor, their bombs bursting above it will tear up FC radars, AA directors, LAA, MAA, and unshielded HAA, and cut down the gun crews, making it easier for any TBs following to attack effectively.
That said, if you want to be historically accurate, after the USMC invented dive bombing in the early 30s, it was believed that it would be so effective that USS Ranger was built without any torpedo magazines at all, on the theory that dive bombing guaranteeing heavy bomb hits on ships had rendered aerial torpedoes obsolete--ignoring, of course, the point made by torpedo boat advocates around the turn of the century that, "If you want to let air into a battleship, use a gun; if you want to let water into it, use a torpedo."
|
|
|
Post by christian on Jul 1, 2019 8:11:25 GMT -6
Historically, the other advantage of dive bombers was their effectiveness at suppressing or destroying the enemy's antiaircraft guns before the torpedo bombers attempted their attack runs. Even late-war torpedo bombing setups (like the USN's combination of the entirely-unfair TBF with the late-mod Mark 13 torpedo that had a drop envelope of "yes") still required relatively low, slow, and straight approaches to the drop point, leaving the TBs particularly vulnerable to AA; even if your dive bombers can't penetrate the deck armor, their bombs bursting above it will tear up FC radars, AA directors, LAA, MAA, and unshielded HAA, and cut down the gun crews, making it easier for any TBs following to attack effectively. That said, if you want to be historically accurate, after the USMC invented dive bombing in the early 30s, it was believed that it would be so effective that USS Ranger was built without any torpedo magazines at all, on the theory that dive bombing guaranteeing heavy bomb hits on ships had rendered aerial torpedoes obsolete--ignoring, of course, the point made by torpedo boat advocates around the turn of the century that, "If you want to let air into a battleship, use a gun; if you want to let water into it, use a torpedo." The Americans estimated that three hits with 500 lb (227 kg) GP bombs would almost certainly sink a 1630-ton destroyer and had a 70% chance of sinking a 2100-ton destroyer. Three hits with 1000 lb (454 kg) GP bombs had a 95% chance of sinking a relatively lightly protected Atlanta-class light cruiser and a 30% chance of sinking a 10,000-ton heavy cruiser. Six hits with the 1000-lb bomb gave a 80% chance of sinking a heavy cruiser. The Americans estimated that seven penetrating bomb hits would be enough to sink a battleship, while the Japanese estimated that 12 to 16 penetrating hits were required. American operational analysts later revised their estimates, concluding that the Mark 33 could sink a battleship only if it hit a magazine, which worked out to a 79% chance of sinking a battleship with six penetrating hits. generally yes if you wanna sink a battleship get a torpedo
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Jul 1, 2019 10:13:42 GMT -6
Of course, those are all estimates. There are many examples of ships going down after being hit with far less ordnance than was estimated to be required. As well, there are many instances of ships taking far more damage than was estimated to be required to sink such a ship. The same thing can happen in RTW2.
What should happen is seldom what does happen.
|
|
|
Post by Blothorn on Jul 1, 2019 16:51:46 GMT -6
main problem is not that AP bombs of that size can pen decks my problem is what actually penned the deck ARMOR PIERCING BOMBS should be able to go through this kind of armor SEMI ARMOR PIERCING SHOULD NOTstill giving a 1000 lb SAP bomb 5.5 inches of penetration is a bit extreme Mark 33, introduced in October 1942, which weighed 1000 lbs (454kg) of which 150 lbs (68 kg) was high explosive. The Mark 33 could penetrate a 5" deck from 10,000' (3050m) or from 6500' (1980m) when dropped from a dive bomber in a 300 knot 60 degree dive. unless they somehow made a SAP BOMB perform better than an armor piercing bomb i have no idea what the hell is going on an ap bomb should be capable of going through 5.5 inches of armor thats fine but a sap bomb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING should not "The most devastating attacks in the game are with heavy guided AP bombs."
except somehow a 1000 lb sap bomb managed to go through 5.5 inches of deck armor and considering its a sap bomb contained quite a bit more explosive filler if we were dealing with an actual armor piercing bomb i could accept that but a semi armour piercing bomb no Out of a total weight of 800 kg (1760 lbs), the bomb had a charge of just 23 kg (50 pounds) of Type 91 explosive. The Type 99 was judged capable of penetrating 5.75" (146mm) of deck armor when dropped from a height of 10,000 feet (3000m). unless they somehow managed to get a sap bomb of doom which can penetrate SLIGHTLY less armor 0.25 inches less armor than a 1760 lb armor piercing bomb which was made to punch through armor Again, not all parts of the deck are equal, fluke penetrations will occur even with bomb/armor/release profile combinations you would not expect to work in the average case. What grounds do you have for claiming that the maximum realistic variance is less than the difference between AP and SAP? Regarding payloads, I suspect that randomized technology, at least, can play with the DB year vs. payload curve. I have had 1x1400lb DBs since the late 30s in my present 50% tech rate game (medium heavier-than-air research, if it is relevant).
|
|
|
Post by christian on Jul 2, 2019 12:13:11 GMT -6
main problem is not that AP bombs of that size can pen decks my problem is what actually penned the deck ARMOR PIERCING BOMBS should be able to go through this kind of armor SEMI ARMOR PIERCING SHOULD NOTstill giving a 1000 lb SAP bomb 5.5 inches of penetration is a bit extreme Mark 33, introduced in October 1942, which weighed 1000 lbs (454kg) of which 150 lbs (68 kg) was high explosive. The Mark 33 could penetrate a 5" deck from 10,000' (3050m) or from 6500' (1980m) when dropped from a dive bomber in a 300 knot 60 degree dive. unless they somehow made a SAP BOMB perform better than an armor piercing bomb i have no idea what the hell is going on an ap bomb should be capable of going through 5.5 inches of armor thats fine but a sap bomb SEMI ARMOUR PIERCING should not "The most devastating attacks in the game are with heavy guided AP bombs."
except somehow a 1000 lb sap bomb managed to go through 5.5 inches of deck armor and considering its a sap bomb contained quite a bit more explosive filler if we were dealing with an actual armor piercing bomb i could accept that but a semi armour piercing bomb no Out of a total weight of 800 kg (1760 lbs), the bomb had a charge of just 23 kg (50 pounds) of Type 91 explosive. The Type 99 was judged capable of penetrating 5.75" (146mm) of deck armor when dropped from a height of 10,000 feet (3000m). unless they somehow managed to get a sap bomb of doom which can penetrate SLIGHTLY less armor 0.25 inches less armor than a 1760 lb armor piercing bomb which was made to punch through armor Again, not all parts of the deck are equal, fluke penetrations will occur even with bomb/armor/release profile combinations you would not expect to work in the average case. What grounds do you have for claiming that the maximum realistic variance is less than the difference between AP and SAP? Regarding payloads, I suspect that randomized technology, at least, can play with the DB year vs. payload curve. I have had 1x1400lb DBs since the late 30s in my present 50% tech rate game (medium heavier-than-air research, if it is relevant). penetration variance is sadly almost not a thing concerning shells and bombs unless the shell quality or bomb quality is poor it should not change from shell to shell on a flat plate unless that sap bomb was going extremely fast (which i can gaurantee it wasent because it has no cap thus it would shatter) bombs are designed in such a way that they reach terminal velocity without shattering and at that speed they penetrate the most unless this sap bomb was just pure magic being able to penetrate alot more armor than it should be able too (normal bombs have alot more steel less explosives sap are a compromise between boom and steel and gp bombs are pure boom steel shell) again a sap bomb should not outperform an ap bomb and sap bombs do not have that kind of penetration FOR COMPARISON a 1600 lb ARMOUR PIERCING BOMB was needed to penetrate 5.5 inches of armor before the newer bomb came into service (newer mk33 having half as much explosive filler) it clearly says engine room hit D * this means engine room d (deck) is hit and penetrated * means penetration what you would expect to see was engine room hit D D means its hit the main armor deck (thus has hit the main armor) Attachments:
|
|