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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 23, 2015 18:03:09 GMT -6
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Post by RNRobert on Nov 24, 2015 11:29:15 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 24, 2015 12:10:30 GMT -6
I saw that and said, hmm, the Russkies won't like that. They like to shoot down everyone else's aircraft.... and they have, trust me..... but they don't like it when one of their wayward boys gets his butt shot off. I watched these guys for four years in the USAF and know of many shoot downs they were never announced especially over Southern Russia. They will raise objections and then one day, a Turkish aircraft will get blown out of the sky and Russians will say " oops, missile went too far, sorry".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 16:28:04 GMT -6
Quite an inflaming event. My first reaction is "boys will be boys" somehow reminding me of the 1981 IAF raid on the Iraqi nuclear plant. However on a flightsim forum I visit, there were some users from the region and they don't seem at all happy.
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 25, 2015 0:35:02 GMT -6
According to reports, the Su-24 was only in Syrian airspace for 17 seconds and the area it crossed over was about two miles wide. Bit of an itchy trigger finger there.
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Post by sirchaos on Nov 25, 2015 3:26:44 GMT -6
Badly, that´s how. Without getting too political, I´ll just observe that bullies, in general, react *very* poorly to getting a taste of their own medicine. Hope everyone else keeps a cool head.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 25, 2015 8:27:03 GMT -6
According to reports, the Su-24 was only in Syrian airspace for 17 seconds and the area it crossed over was about two miles wide. Bit of an itchy trigger finger there. This is a specific case of two wrongs don't make a right. Turkish air command is supposed to be monitoring their airspace and should have detected this aircraft and warned their pilots. Then you contact the unknown aircraft and warn it that it is now traversing Turkish airspace. I don't see this has having happened. On the other hand, the Russian's simply show up in Syria and apparently have not educated their pilots on the local topography which is the good way of knowing where you are and when you have entered foreign airspace. The Russian's are remiss in not taking steps to warn the nations in the area of the proposed activity. The pilots should have been keeping an eye on the ground and their maps, and realized how close to Turkish airspace they were getting. Both sides need to reexamine their procedures and protocols to fix this situation. In my experiences during the Cold War, we did this on a weekly basis as Russian bombers came down through the Alaskan Air Command and into our airspace. We monitored them closely, and then if they veered too close, we warned them then scramble fighters from Hamilton or other fighter bases, and escorted them off. It also happened to airliners who strayed to close or through the Air Defense Zones off of the coast. Update: www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/world/europe/turkey-russia-fighter-jet.html?_r=0 - According to this article, the Turkish Air Command did warn the pilot of that Su-24 10 times that they were in Turkish airspace. This means that they did part of their job, and should have ordered the pilot to buss the unknown aircraft and not shoot, it appears that either they did not, or the orders were not followed. Update: Navigator says he was never warned by the Turks. Yup, that is exactly what a navigator who screwed up would say, "They never said anything". No idiot, you are supposed to know where the h... you are, you are navigating. Ich.
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 25, 2015 20:41:33 GMT -6
From what I've gathered, after a few incidents with the Syrians (and two prior incursions by the Russians during their first week of operations), the standing order given to the Turkish military was to shoot anything crossing the border. They had already reportedly shot down one Russian drone in the first few weeks of combat operations. Last September a Syrian Su-24 flew just 800 meters into Israeli airspace and was shot down by a Patriot SAM that hit after the plane had re-entered Syrian airspace. Seems none of the neighbors are taking chances.
The WSO also stated that they didn't see the missile coming, which if true is a very poor performance - bad navigation, no attention to the radio, and no attention to their RWR or surroundings. Still doesn't absolve the Turks of being quick on the trigger or the Turkomen gunning the pilot down in his chute (that bit about "do not eject over the area you've just bombed" isn't as funny anymore), but if they were cutting through Turkish airspace deaf, dumb, and blind that aircrew paid for it.
Looks like while they got the WSO back safe, the Russian CSAR force took a hit. One of their Mi-8s was hit and forced down by rebel small arms fire with one Russian naval infantryman KIA; it appears after the crew landed and evacuated the helo it was destroyed by a TOW missile.
The interesting bit is that Russia now wants to move an S-400 SAM system into Latakia, which is going to be a complication for Western strikes on ISIS in Syria.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 25, 2015 21:00:08 GMT -6
From what I've gathered, after a few incidents with the Syrians (and two prior incursions by the Russians during their first week of operations), the standing order given to the Turkish military was to shoot anything crossing the border. They had already reportedly shot down one Russian drone in the first few weeks of combat operations. Last September a Syrian Su-24 flew just 800 meters into Israeli airspace and was shot down by a Patriot SAM that hit after the plane had re-entered Syrian airspace. Seems none of the neighbors are taking chances. The WSO also stated that they didn't see the missile coming, which if true is a very poor performance - bad navigation, no attention to the radio, and no attention to their RWR or surroundings. Still doesn't absolve the Turks of being quick on the trigger or the Turkomen gunning the pilot down in his chute (that bit about "do not eject over the area you've just bombed" isn't as funny anymore), but if they were cutting through Turkish airspace deaf, dumb, and blind that aircrew paid for it. Looks like while they got the WSO back safe, the Russian CSAR force took a hit. One of their Mi-8s was hit and forced down by rebel small arms fire with one Russian naval infantryman KIA; it appears after the crew landed and evacuated the helo it was destroyed by a TOW missile. The interesting bit is that Russia now wants to move an S-400 SAM system into Latakia, which is going to be a complication for Western strikes on ISIS in Syria. It's like a comedy of errors. The Turks have released an audio where they warned the SU-24 to change their heading to south. Interesting, but who can understand it and who will believe that it is the actual recording... certainly not the Russians. Also interesting is the Russians are now saying they will escort their bombers.....wonderful, but the question; why weren't you doing that before. If they do move that S-400 into the region, now we or the French can punch it lights out and claim that it had locked onto one of our aircraft. This really going to get dangerous and really funny pretty soon. All this time, the IAF is sitting there, laughing their heads off at the amateurish actions of both the Turks and Russians.
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 28, 2015 15:33:16 GMT -6
According to reports, the Su-24 was only in Syrian airspace for 17 seconds and the area it crossed over was about two miles wide. Bit of an itchy trigger finger there. This is a specific case of two wrongs don't make a right. Turkish air command is supposed to be monitoring their airspace and should have detected this aircraft and warned their pilots. Then you contact the unknown aircraft and warn it that it is now traversing Turkish airspace. I don't see this has having happened. On the other hand, the Russian's simply show up in Syria and apparently have not educated their pilots on the local topography which is the good way of knowing where you are and when you have entered foreign airspace. The Russian's are remiss in not taking steps to warn the nations in the area of the proposed activity. The pilots should have been keeping an eye on the ground and their maps, and realized how close to Turkish airspace they were getting. Both sides need to reexamine their procedures and protocols to fix this situation. In my experiences during the Cold War, we did this on a weekly basis as Russian bombers came down through the Alaskan Air Command and into our airspace. We monitored them closely, and then if they veered too close, we warned them then scramble fighters from Hamilton or other fighter bases, and escorted them off. It also happened to airliners who strayed to close or through the Air Defense Zones off of the coast. Update: www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/world/europe/turkey-russia-fighter-jet.html?_r=0 - According to this article, the Turkish Air Command did warn the pilot of that Su-24 10 times that they were in Turkish airspace. This means that they did part of their job, and should have ordered the pilot to buss the unknown aircraft and not shoot, it appears that either they did not, or the orders were not followed. Update: Navigator says he was never warned by the Turks. Yup, that is exactly what a navigator who screwed up would say, "They never said anything". No idiot, you are supposed to know where the h... you are, you are navigating. Ich. motherboard.vice.com/read/belgian-physicists-calculate-that-everyone-is-lying-about-the-downed-russian-jetNot sure I buy this analysis in its entirety, but worth discussing.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 28, 2015 18:13:11 GMT -6
This is a specific case of two wrongs don't make a right. Turkish air command is supposed to be monitoring their airspace and should have detected this aircraft and warned their pilots. Then you contact the unknown aircraft and warn it that it is now traversing Turkish airspace. I don't see this has having happened. On the other hand, the Russian's simply show up in Syria and apparently have not educated their pilots on the local topography which is the good way of knowing where you are and when you have entered foreign airspace. The Russian's are remiss in not taking steps to warn the nations in the area of the proposed activity. The pilots should have been keeping an eye on the ground and their maps, and realized how close to Turkish airspace they were getting. Both sides need to reexamine their procedures and protocols to fix this situation. In my experiences during the Cold War, we did this on a weekly basis as Russian bombers came down through the Alaskan Air Command and into our airspace. We monitored them closely, and then if they veered too close, we warned them then scramble fighters from Hamilton or other fighter bases, and escorted them off. It also happened to airliners who strayed to close or through the Air Defense Zones off of the coast. Update: www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/world/europe/turkey-russia-fighter-jet.html?_r=0 - According to this article, the Turkish Air Command did warn the pilot of that Su-24 10 times that they were in Turkish airspace. This means that they did part of their job, and should have ordered the pilot to buss the unknown aircraft and not shoot, it appears that either they did not, or the orders were not followed. Update: Navigator says he was never warned by the Turks. Yup, that is exactly what a navigator who screwed up would say, "They never said anything". No idiot, you are supposed to know where the h... you are, you are navigating. Ich. motherboard.vice.com/read/belgian-physicists-calculate-that-everyone-is-lying-about-the-downed-russian-jetNot sure I buy this analysis in its entirety, but worth discussing. Interesting assessment but they were not in the cockpits and on the ground with the Turkish controllers. I agree however, it was two wrongs don't make a right. The pilots should have been navigating better and the Turks were trigger happy.
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 29, 2015 16:57:20 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 29, 2015 19:15:04 GMT -6
This is the key statement: Russian planes do not intend to attack us, which is why we must not automatically react and shoot them down when an error occurs.
This is a statement by an experienced air defense system, not a bunch of amateurs. The Turks need to go to Israel and learn some lessons. As to the Russians, it's possible that the Russians are relying too heavily on their INS. The IMU or inertial measurement units, if mechanical and not laser, can drift if not calibrated and adjusted properly. These are the gyroscopic platforms that carry the accelerometers for roll, pitch and yaw. They spin at high speeds. Once they have been caged, they go into the course align mode, then after that, the fine align mode until the pilot switches them navigate. Prior to doing that, he enters current position, waypoints and then final destination. On carriers, that current position is transmitted by the ships inertial navigation system via a radio downlink. It is a very complex system and in the field when under stress to fly frequent missions per day, the maintenance can suffer. The IMU's take a considerable amount of time to test and calibrate. The most frequent mistake is have the wrong lat-long of the target and exit points. Lack of knowledge of the geographical area can be a major issue as the INS doesn't have a clue about such information. I went to school, and worked for many years on the ASN-92 INS used on the E2C Hawkeye, RF-4B, F-14 and a host of other aircraft in the USN and USAF. What I don't know is whether the Russian's use ring lasers for IMU's and GPS updates which makes them more accurate. As I said earlier, two wrongs don't make a right both sides are amateurish. Go home Russians, and learn how to navigate and update your maps. Update: Further research shows that the Russians have a satellite based navigation system titled GLONASS and laser INS systems. www.defenseworld.net/news/11616/Sukhoi_T_50_Aircraft_To_Get_New_Navigation_System#.Vluqvo-cGUkThe question then becomes whether these SU-24's have that new system, it is only about a year old.
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 30, 2015 20:29:27 GMT -6
This is the key statement: Russian planes do not intend to attack us, which is why we must not automatically react and shoot them down when an error occurs.
This is a statement by an experienced air defense system, not a bunch of amateurs. The Turks need to go to Israel and learn some lessons. As to the Russians, it's possible that the Russians are relying too heavily on their INS. The IMU or inertial measurement units, if mechanical and not laser, can drift if not calibrated and adjusted properly. These are the gyroscopic platforms that carry the accelerometers for roll, pitch and yaw. They spin at high speeds. Once they have been caged, they go into the course align mode, then after that, the fine align mode until the pilot switches them navigate. Prior to doing that, he enters current position, waypoints and then final destination. On carriers, that current position is transmitted by the ships inertial navigation system via a radio downlink. It is a very complex system and in the field when under stress to fly frequent missions per day, the maintenance can suffer. The IMU's take a considerable amount of time to test and calibrate. The most frequent mistake is have the wrong lat-long of the target and exit points. Lack of knowledge of the geographical area can be a major issue as the INS doesn't have a clue about such information. I went to school, and worked for many years on the ASN-92 INS used on the E2C Hawkeye, RF-4B, F-14 and a host of other aircraft in the USN and USAF. What I don't know is whether the Russian's use ring lasers for IMU's and GPS updates which makes them more accurate. As I said earlier, two wrongs don't make a right both sides are amateurish. Go home Russians, and learn how to navigate and update your maps. Update: Further research shows that the Russians have a satellite based navigation system titled GLONASS and laser INS systems. www.defenseworld.net/news/11616/Sukhoi_T_50_Aircraft_To_Get_New_Navigation_System#.Vluqvo-cGUkThe question then becomes whether these SU-24's have that new system, it is only about a year old. Mostly the same info in this story: www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/11/30/russia-israel-broaden-defense-coordination-syria/76576390/Of course, the more cynical view is that Israel has been in a hot and cold running war with Syria since it's foundation, and for the most part has beaten them like a rented gong. With the current situation, if Israel shoots a Syrian aircraft out of the sky or blows up whatever targets it pleases (such as a shipment of Russian AShMs) there's not much Assad can do besides cry boo hoo. The Russians are a different ballgame and merit a more delicate touch. Still, much better resolution of the problem. Recalled seeing this a while back - foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443 - wonder if the crew didn't hear the Turkish wave-off because their GPS unit was saying "Recalculating ..."
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 30, 2015 20:44:58 GMT -6
This is the key statement: Russian planes do not intend to attack us, which is why we must not automatically react and shoot them down when an error occurs.
This is a statement by an experienced air defense system, not a bunch of amateurs. The Turks need to go to Israel and learn some lessons. As to the Russians, it's possible that the Russians are relying too heavily on their INS. The IMU or inertial measurement units, if mechanical and not laser, can drift if not calibrated and adjusted properly. These are the gyroscopic platforms that carry the accelerometers for roll, pitch and yaw. They spin at high speeds. Once they have been caged, they go into the course align mode, then after that, the fine align mode until the pilot switches them navigate. Prior to doing that, he enters current position, waypoints and then final destination. On carriers, that current position is transmitted by the ships inertial navigation system via a radio downlink. It is a very complex system and in the field when under stress to fly frequent missions per day, the maintenance can suffer. The IMU's take a considerable amount of time to test and calibrate. The most frequent mistake is have the wrong lat-long of the target and exit points. Lack of knowledge of the geographical area can be a major issue as the INS doesn't have a clue about such information. I went to school, and worked for many years on the ASN-92 INS used on the E2C Hawkeye, RF-4B, F-14 and a host of other aircraft in the USN and USAF. What I don't know is whether the Russian's use ring lasers for IMU's and GPS updates which makes them more accurate. As I said earlier, two wrongs don't make a right both sides are amateurish. Go home Russians, and learn how to navigate and update your maps. Update: Further research shows that the Russians have a satellite based navigation system titled GLONASS and laser INS systems. www.defenseworld.net/news/11616/Sukhoi_T_50_Aircraft_To_Get_New_Navigation_System#.Vluqvo-cGUkThe question then becomes whether these SU-24's have that new system, it is only about a year old. Mostly the same info in this story: www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/11/30/russia-israel-broaden-defense-coordination-syria/76576390/Of course, the more cynical view is that Israel has been in a hot and cold running war with Syria since it's foundation, and for the most part has beaten them like a rented gong. With the current situation, if Israel shoots a Syrian aircraft out of the sky or blows up whatever targets it pleases (such as a shipment of Russian AShMs) there's not much Assad can do besides cry boo hoo. The Russians are a different ballgame and merit a more delicate touch. Still, much better resolution of the problem. Recalled seeing this a while back - foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443 - wonder if the crew didn't hear the Turkish wave-off because their GPS unit was saying "Recalculating ..." Current commercial grade GPS is actually more accurate than military grade because it uses a two signal correction so there isn't anything that bad about using it, except trying to integrate an old INS with a new GPS is problematic. My guess is that it isn't working all that well. As to whether they couldn't hear the Turks, my guess is that they did, but probably paid no attention to it because their INS told them they were on the right side. So much for that idea.
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