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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 15, 2015 12:45:57 GMT -6
I've just finished watching the 2008 European movie titled "The Red Baron". It started slow but eventually caught fire and was an excellent movie. It had some good flying scenes but they weren't real aircraft in combat, they were animations I guess. However, they did have reproductions of RE-8s, Albatros, DR1s and Camels. Flight gear except for a lighter circa 1950, was really effective as were the scenes in hospitals, mansions and other locations. Here is a link that probably does a better job of the details - www.imdb.com/title/tt0365675/ However, the movie, IMHO, did a good job of showing Von Richtofen as the Prussian aristocrat that he was, chivalric, and conducting himself as knight of the air. It shows him at the start of career believing that he was shooting down planes, not men. He and his fellow pilots are detached from the horrors of the trenches, living in luxury while others bled for their country. Only after being shot down and getting a hole in his head, does his attitude change. Specifically after he meets with a nurse whom he strikes of a romantic relationship with and who shows him the real horrors of the conflict. Even his brother Lothar understands what the war is all about, that is killing and that is what they are there to do. He, lothar and Manfred have a big argument over Lothar's conduct, because Manfred does not believe in it. However, he transitions over time, after many friends die in the air and his nurse shows him a hospital and explains all in this room will die, does he begin to realize what this is all about. However, the attitude of an honorable death at the hands of a "Worthy" opponent was still very strong, even later in the war.
The actual death scene is not portrayed in the movie, he is show in his Fokker DR1 getting ready to takeoff during Michael offensive and then the movie jumps to two weeks later, as the nurse is escorted by Captain Roy Brown to the graveside in Allied lines. Did this actually happen, I don't know?
We know that the Red Baron was shot down and killed on April 21, 1918 with 80 kills to his name. History has given the credit to a Canadian flying named Captain Roy Brown, but Brown never took credit or claimed the victory. We know he was chasing a newbie by the name of Lt. Wilfred May at low altitude of Australian lines and was spotted by Captain Brown who dived on him, firing. The Baron turned and looked at him and Brown then climbed out. At this point, the Baron must have realized he had made cardinal error by chasing May, at low altitude over enemy territory and did a 180 to go home. At this point two Australian machine gunners were firing at the Baron and forensics recently have shown that it was probably one of those men, who fired the "golden BB". He was hit and managed to land the plane, but was found dead.
As to the Baron's reputation as the greatest ace, I believe that he was a great hunter but possibly not the best pilot. He hunted his opponent, dived and shot at him from close range, if he did not get him, he kept on the moving. Boom and zoom was his tactic and this is true of most great aces. I've looked at his list of kills and there is a combination of two seat and single seat. His greatest triumph was the English ace Major Lanoe Hawker, however, in the movie he was flying the wrong aircraft. On the whole, the Baron had a target rich environment and did abandon a chase, if it was not in his best interest. He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 16, 2015 8:14:13 GMT -6
To those with a faint, passing interest in what the Baron had to say about himself and his history, here is a link to the Internet Archive copy of his WWI book, The Red Fighter Pilot. archive.org/details/redbattleflyer00richiala
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Post by RNRobert on Apr 16, 2015 9:04:30 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 16, 2015 10:25:39 GMT -6
Thank you Robert, these are interesting and add to the discussion. What discussion?
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Post by steel selachian on Apr 16, 2015 20:58:14 GMT -6
I find it interesting how many of the top aces in history weren't the best pilots or even the best shots (Richard Bong was such an admittedly poor shot - even in the P-38 - that he often got close enough to be hit by debris), but the best tacticians. Being a fancy flier isn't much use if the other guy has better SA and riddles your fuselage while you aren't looking.
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Post by RNRobert on Apr 17, 2015 7:45:44 GMT -6
Thank you Robert, these are interesting and add to the discussion. What discussion? I thought we were discussing the Red Baron.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2015 11:25:50 GMT -6
Thank you Robert, these are interesting and add to the discussion. What discussion? I thought we were discussing the Red Baron. Just having fun Robert, relax.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2015 11:26:24 GMT -6
It may seem illogical, but flying is secondary to fighting in air combat. Mannock and Richthofen were average pilots, but had great fighting spirit and were excellent marksmen. Some pilots mastered deflection shooting, others just used the straight in approach, like Albert Ball who killed from the belly. As a pilot, you find the best method for you and you use it.
Another important quality of a good fighter pilot is knowledge of the capability of your aircraft; its good points and bad. Knowledge of his opponent both his aircraft and if possible many of his pilots. Most good pilots understand the capability of their own aircraft and its systems. The reason for Top Gun and Red Flag was to teach pilots about the best tactics for their particular aircraft. The fighter ace is a well prepared pilot. They plan carefully and prepare continuously after hours, getting ready for the next flight. You fight like you train and the more you train, the less that surprises you when you are in air combat. Good fighter pilots focus, and the aces were highly focused. They let nothing distract them and they reacted quickly. They never stopped getting better through constant and relentless study, training and the need to get better every time they went up.
All aces relied on battle-tested lessons of air combat, even John Boyd with his energy-maneuverability charts used the past lessons to develop his charts. The aces mantra was" the day you stop wanting to be better is the day you stop being good. "
There is one final piece in this puzzle.... luck. When you are flying in a two plane element, your life can be in the hands of your wingman. If he fails, you probably will die. Many an ace died because he was attempting to save a fellow pilot or had flown too many missions and lost the edge. This is why the US and GB put limits on the number of missions for pilots. The German's and Japanese never did this, and over time paid the price for it.
UPDATE: This quote is about Richard Bong: "Bong described combat flying as fun and a great game that made life interesting. Some pilots were only concerned with their scores, almost to the point of recklessness. Bong relished in the actual flying of combat, not how many enemy aircraft he could shoot down. Bong often referred to his gunnery skills as being lousy, perhaps the worst in the Army Air Force, and this was after breaking Eddie Rickenbacker's record of 26 kills! However, his skills were very adequate, and estimates were that he had a 91 percent hit rate. Bong also knew how to get the most from the aircraft he was flying. He loved flying the P-38, and many pilots who flew with him commented on his mastery of it. He was not a flashy pilot, and knew the limitations of the P-38 and never pushed it beyond. His analytical nature was valuable when flying combat, and he always analyzed the situation before going in with guns firing. Most importantly, he felt no shame in breaking off an engagement when the odds turned against him."
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2015 16:58:11 GMT -6
Ok, let's see if you know your WWI fighters and can assess their strengths. You are flying an SE-5A scout, at 10,000 feet and you meet a Albatros D V. How do you fight him? What does he do?
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Post by RNRobert on Apr 17, 2015 18:32:40 GMT -6
Ok, let's see if you know your WWI fighters and can assess their strengths. You are flying an SE-5A scout, at 10,000 feet and you meet a Albatros D V. How do you fight him? What does he do? From what I do know of WW1 fighters, the SE-5 was pretty fast (130 mph, I think the fast of the WW1 fighters). I would use my speed to get into position, and speed to get away if the situation turns against me. The Se-5 also has a Lewis gun mounted on the wing, so I get can below the Albatros and shoot into his belly.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2015 20:46:54 GMT -6
Ok, let's see if you know your WWI fighters and can assess their strengths. You are flying an SE-5A scout, at 10,000 feet and you meet a Albatros D V. How do you fight him? What does he do? From what I do know of WW1 fighters, the SE-5 was pretty fast (130 mph, I think the fast of the WW1 fighters). I would use my speed to get into position, and speed to get away if the situation turns against me. The Se-5 also has a Lewis gun mounted on the wing, so I get can below the Albatros and shoot into his belly. Nice assessment, you have superior speed by about 7-10 MPH, you can outclimb him and you have a gun that can pivot back and fire upward. That's how Albert Ball did most of his kills. Some other considerations though, after you dive and shoot, you will need to yaw the plane and see where he is and where he is going. This is situational awareness and it is vital. This will determine your next move.
Nice.
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Post by RNRobert on Apr 18, 2015 7:47:07 GMT -6
Speaking of shooting skills, I believe Rene Fonck was quite the marksman.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 18, 2015 9:02:48 GMT -6
Speaking of shooting skills, I believe Rene Fonck was quite the marksman.
As one of his friends stated: " He is a tiresome braggart and even a bore, but in the air, a slashing rapier, ...... " Needless to say he was an excellent shot and on two separate occasions, shot down six German planes in one day. He claimed 125 but only 75 could be verified.
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Post by steel selachian on Apr 18, 2015 21:31:35 GMT -6
It may seem illogical, but flying is secondary to fighting in air combat. Mannock and Richthofen were average pilots, but had great fighting spirit and were excellent marksmen. Some pilots mastered deflection shooting, others just used the straight in approach, like Albert Ball who killed from the belly. As a pilot, you find the best method for you and you use it.
Another important quality of a good fighter pilot is knowledge of the capability of your aircraft; its good points and bad. Knowledge of his opponent both his aircraft and if possible many of his pilots. Most good pilots understand the capability of their own aircraft and its systems. The reason for Top Gun and Red Flag was to teach pilots about the best tactics for their particular aircraft. The fighter ace is a well prepared pilot. They plan carefully and prepare continuously after hours, getting ready for the next flight. You fight like you train and the more you train, the less that surprises you when you are in air combat. Good fighter pilots focus, and the aces were highly focused. They let nothing distract them and they reacted quickly. They never stopped getting better through constant and relentless study, training and the need to get better every time they went up.
All aces relied on battle-tested lessons of air combat, even John Boyd with his energy-maneuverability charts used the past lessons to develop his charts. The aces mantra was" the day you stop wanting to be better is the day you stop being good. "
There is one final piece in this puzzle.... luck. When you are flying in a two plane element, your life can be in the hands of your wingman. If he fails, you probably will die. Many an ace died because he was attempting to save a fellow pilot or had flown too many missions and lost the edge. This is why the US and GB put limits on the number of missions for pilots. The German's and Japanese never did this, and over time paid the price for it.
UPDATE: This quote is about Richard Bong: "Bong described combat flying as fun and a great game that made life interesting. Some pilots were only concerned with their scores, almost to the point of recklessness. Bong relished in the actual flying of combat, not how many enemy aircraft he could shoot down. Bong often referred to his gunnery skills as being lousy, perhaps the worst in the Army Air Force, and this was after breaking Eddie Rickenbacker's record of 26 kills! However, his skills were very adequate, and estimates were that he had a 91 percent hit rate. Bong also knew how to get the most from the aircraft he was flying. He loved flying the P-38, and many pilots who flew with him commented on his mastery of it. He was not a flashy pilot, and knew the limitations of the P-38 and never pushed it beyond. His analytical nature was valuable when flying combat, and he always analyzed the situation before going in with guns firing. Most importantly, he felt no shame in breaking off an engagement when the odds turned against him." Bong was a big contrast with his fellow P-38 ace Thomas McGuire; I recall reading that one observer commented McGuire's flying talent was only surpassed by his ego. Supposedly when Charles Lindbergh was assigned to his unit as a civilian consultant visitors observed McGuire ordering him about like a servant. McGuire got killed on a mission where he was specifically out to beat Bong's score; he ordered his flight not to ditch their drop tanks when a single Ki-43 turned up so that they could keep going and rack up more kills. That decision arguably did him in; he stalled out 300 ft over the ground while trying to outmaneuver the Ki-43 and crashed. His flight engaged a total of two enemy aircraft (neither simultaneously); 2 P-38s were lost and one was damaged in return for a kill and a damage.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 19, 2015 8:55:21 GMT -6
It may seem illogical, but flying is secondary to fighting in air combat. Mannock and Richthofen were average pilots, but had great fighting spirit and were excellent marksmen. Some pilots mastered deflection shooting, others just used the straight in approach, like Albert Ball who killed from the belly. As a pilot, you find the best method for you and you use it.
Another important quality of a good fighter pilot is knowledge of the capability of your aircraft; its good points and bad. Knowledge of his opponent both his aircraft and if possible many of his pilots. Most good pilots understand the capability of their own aircraft and its systems. The reason for Top Gun and Red Flag was to teach pilots about the best tactics for their particular aircraft. The fighter ace is a well prepared pilot. They plan carefully and prepare continuously after hours, getting ready for the next flight. You fight like you train and the more you train, the less that surprises you when you are in air combat. Good fighter pilots focus, and the aces were highly focused. They let nothing distract them and they reacted quickly. They never stopped getting better through constant and relentless study, training and the need to get better every time they went up.
All aces relied on battle-tested lessons of air combat, even John Boyd with his energy-maneuverability charts used the past lessons to develop his charts. The aces mantra was" the day you stop wanting to be better is the day you stop being good. "
There is one final piece in this puzzle.... luck. When you are flying in a two plane element, your life can be in the hands of your wingman. If he fails, you probably will die. Many an ace died because he was attempting to save a fellow pilot or had flown too many missions and lost the edge. This is why the US and GB put limits on the number of missions for pilots. The German's and Japanese never did this, and over time paid the price for it.
UPDATE: This quote is about Richard Bong: "Bong described combat flying as fun and a great game that made life interesting. Some pilots were only concerned with their scores, almost to the point of recklessness. Bong relished in the actual flying of combat, not how many enemy aircraft he could shoot down. Bong often referred to his gunnery skills as being lousy, perhaps the worst in the Army Air Force, and this was after breaking Eddie Rickenbacker's record of 26 kills! However, his skills were very adequate, and estimates were that he had a 91 percent hit rate. Bong also knew how to get the most from the aircraft he was flying. He loved flying the P-38, and many pilots who flew with him commented on his mastery of it. He was not a flashy pilot, and knew the limitations of the P-38 and never pushed it beyond. His analytical nature was valuable when flying combat, and he always analyzed the situation before going in with guns firing. Most importantly, he felt no shame in breaking off an engagement when the odds turned against him." Bong was a big contrast with his fellow P-38 ace Thomas McGuire; I recall reading that one observer commented McGuire's flying talent was only surpassed by his ego. Supposedly when Charles Lindbergh was assigned to his unit as a civilian consultant visitors observed McGuire ordering him about like a servant. McGuire got killed on a mission where he was specifically out to beat Bong's score; he ordered his flight not to ditch their drop tanks when a single Ki-43 turned up so that they could keep going and rack up more kills. That decision arguably did him in; he stalled out 300 ft over the ground while trying to outmaneuver the Ki-43 and crashed. His flight engaged a total of two enemy aircraft (neither simultaneously); 2 P-38s were lost and one was damaged in return for a kill and a damage. I think it is more likely that McGuire did not want to have to scrub a mission for just one Japanese aircraft. Failing to drop tanks sounds more like a tactical move rather than a show of bravado. He was an experienced combat leader and knew that the mission was far more important than the three extra kills. He was probably hoping that the KI-43 would simply pass by and refuse to engage. Keep in mind, the Hayabusa only had two .5 caliber machine guns with about 270 rounds per gun. That's about 4. 5 seconds of firing.
www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-38/44-24845/mason/index.html
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