Treaty of Versailles vs. Global Treaty restrictions

[rdfox]

I've noticed something in my Germany playthroughs that makes it a bit difficult to be ready for any sort of conflict in the 1920 scenario, but is less than historically accurate.  Specifically, if I start with a naval limitations treaty in place beyond the Versailles Treaty, Germany is also under those restrictions, which are inevitably more severe than those of the Versailles Treaty, in addition to the Versailles limits.  Historically, Germany was not a party to the Washington Treaty--the Versailles limits meant that they were not even invited to the Washington Naval Conference and thus weren't part of the Treaty.  Thus, historically, the Washington Treaty limits did not apply to Germany, so long as they were building domestically, only the Versailles limits.  (I think that the First London Treaty did include Germany, but I'm not certain if it did or if Germany merely paid lip service to its limits for political reasons.)

I understand this might be awkward to implement, but would there be a way to have it so that, if the Versailles Treaty is still in effect, other naval treaties don't apply to Germany?  Ones negotiated after the expiration/repudiation of the Versailles Treaty would behave like normal, but Germany can still exceed Washington/random treaty limits to try and rebuild within the Versailles restrictions...

[Flugzeugträger Europa]

Hello rdfox ! I am presently trying to figure out how to model this in my own playthrough as well, since I want to do a Weimar Republic AAR. We discussed it in my thread quite a bit too. So far it seems that there is no way how to force the AI to listen to the treaty without limiting those who weren't part of the treaty. The treaty simply applies to everyone because of the way it is coded right now. What I am trying to figure out now is, if I can somehow apply a peace treaty to every nation separately to do this. Only other thing that came to my mind would be adjusting AI designs to conform WNT. Though if there is anyone with a better idea, I would love to hear it.

[aeson]

Jul 14, 2019 8:59:01 GMT -6 rdfox said:

I think that the First London Treaty did include Germany

The only way in which Germany is part of the Washington-First London-Second London treaty system is through the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1935.

I've noticed something in my Germany playthroughs that makes it a bit difficult to be ready for any sort of conflict in the 1920 scenario, but is less than historically accurate. Specifically, if I start with a naval limitations treaty in place beyond the Versailles Treaty, Germany is also under those restrictions, which are inevitably more severe than those of the Versailles Treaty, in addition to the Versailles limits.

In the current patch, the rules are specifically that the gun caliber limit is set by the peace treaty and the displacement limit is the more restrictive of the peace treaty and the international treaty. A random treaty can give you a less restrictive limit than the 10,000 tons of the 'historical' Washington Treaty...

... in which case you'll be limited to 12,000 tons by the game's version of the Versailles treaty.

Also, I'll point out that the game's version of Versailles is actually much less restrictive than the historical, which permitted the German fleet just six battleships of not more than ten thousand tons apiece, six light cruisers, 12 destroyers, and 12 torpedo boats, with the battleships not to be replaced less than 20 years after entering service and the lighter ships not to be replaced less than 15 years after entering service. The game's Versailles treaty permits as many ships as you can afford and allows them to be up to 12,000 tons if a more restrictive international treaty is not in effect.

[cabalamat]

Jul 14, 2019 8:59:01 GMT -6 rdfox said:

I've noticed something in my Germany playthroughs that makes it a bit difficult to be ready for any sort of conflict in the 1920 scenario, but is less than historically accurate.  Specifically, if I start with a naval limitations treaty in place beyond the Versailles Treaty, Germany is also under those restrictions, which are inevitably more severe than those of the Versailles Treaty, in addition to the Versailles limits.  Historically, Germany was not a party to the Washington Treaty--the Versailles limits meant that they were not even invited to the Washington Naval Conference and thus weren't part of the Treaty.  Thus, historically, the Washington Treaty limits did not apply to Germany,

This is why Germany was allowed to build 10,000 t ships with 11" guns whereas other powers were limited to 8" guns.

The USSR was also not party to the Washington treaty.

[zardoz]

Furthermore, according to my knowledge, an airforce was forbidden. So, the possibility in the game that you can set up a naval airforce is unhistorical.

[aeson]

Jul 15, 2019 1:26:37 GMT -6 zardoz said:

Furthermore, according to my knowledge, an airforce was forbidden. So, the possibility in the game that you can set up a naval airforce is unhistorical.

Yep. First clause of Article 198: "The armed forces of Germany must not include any military or naval air forces." The game's version of Versailles is also missing the ban on construction of coastal fortifications from Article 196, though I doubt if many of us would care all that much if it were there.

The game does have a sort of half-hearted attempt at banning a naval air force inasmuch as Germany cannot build or convert ships into aircraft carriers under the game's Versailles Treaty restrictions:

I don't know why it's not mentioned in the nation overview at game start, in the tooltip that pops up for the treaty when you hover your cursor over the remaining time counter, or in the Almanac during the game.

[zardoz]

One can play the Weimarer Republik with the real Versailles contract as a "house rule".


That would be very very very challenging .... .