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Post by sloanjh on Jul 27, 2019 9:07:28 GMT -6
I just finished my first set of CVL conversions, and wanted to check how the AI nations were doing. Checking the almanac, it looks like the AI nations have scrapped all of their B, and so will have difficulty finding 16kton-ish ships to convert to CVL. (Note that I killed most of Germany and Austria's Bs in a war, but the other nations should have still had some.) Others have mentioned that the AI seems overly aggressive in its scrapping decisions; this example might hurt the AI worse. This is 1.06 (started from 1.05b) and I've got VLarge fleets (1900 build legacy start). [EDIT] - just realized that I've got 3 more CVL that are refitting and they don't show up in almanac (new RTW2 feature - not sure if it's a bug) so I've added a save file in case the other nations have refit tasks going that I can't see.  Attachments:Game4f.7z (317.62 KB)
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Post by dorn on Jul 27, 2019 9:56:33 GMT -6
Old pre-dreadnoughts are bad for conversions, they are too slow and too old. Scrapping legacy fleets at end of 10s is not too early, especially in very large fleets.
There is difference in almanac where refitting ships are not counted as number but shown as tonnage. I do not like it I think that it was better in RTW1.
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Post by sloanjh on Jul 27, 2019 10:39:51 GMT -6
Old pre-dreadnoughts are bad for conversions, they are too slow and too old. Scrapping legacy fleets at end of 10s is not too early, especially in very large fleets.
There is difference in almanac where refitting ships are not counted as number but shown as tonnage. I do not like it I think that it was better in RTW1.
I've had good success converting my 16kton B --> CVL. If I remove all the guns (originally because I couldn't figure out how to avoid the "new turret" error by using casemates  ) and re-engine, then I end up with 21-22kt (which is close enough to my initial battle line speed) and 24-26ac. In two full play-throughs I've kept these ships through most of the game (of course I used to keep my 21kt CL through most of RTW1 ). By scrapping these Bs it looks like the AI is being deprived of this opportunity. Caveat 1: I do 1900 starts (obviously) and build my own legacy fleet, so I don't get as many weird designs as the AI. OTOH I tend to armor heavily and don't consider the possibility of CVL conversion when designing the B, so there's a chance my designs might be less suited for conversion (all that armor). Caveat 2: Just because I can use 21kt CVL effectively doesn't mean the AI will - it sometimes makes poor choices in battle OTOH I usually just leave my CVL groups on support anyway, so the AI is still running them. Agree completely on not liking the way RTW2 is handling refits - I'd rather have the top-line counts ignore refit status in the same way it ignores mothball status, especially for short (3-4 months) refits. There have been many times where I've looked at the almanac and thought enemy ship counts were lower than reality because there were ships "hiding" in refit. John |
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Post by seawolf on Jul 27, 2019 22:22:25 GMT -6
Just to point out in real life absolutely no predreadnought battleships, armored cruisers, or early dreadnoughts were converted to aircraft carriers. Only upcoming dreadnought classes were converted (Normandie-Bearn, Amagi-Akagi, Tosa-Kaga, Borodino-Izmail(Cancelled), Lexington) along with the modern dreadnought Eagle and the modern Courageous class battlecruisers.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 28, 2019 5:05:35 GMT -6
Just to point out in real life absolutely no predreadnought battleships, armored cruisers, or early dreadnoughts were converted to aircraft carriers. Only upcoming dreadnought classes were converted (Normandie-Bearn, Amagi-Akagi, Tosa-Kaga, Borodino-Izmail(Cancelled), Lexington) along with the modern dreadnought Eagle and the modern Courageous class battlecruisers. Yes, I have thought about that too, and maybe the game is too permissive in that regard, but I didn't want to deprive the player of the possibility. B and CA were probably not so used IRL because of their insufficient speed. There was one cruiser though that was converted, the Vindictive, though she straddled the old and new CA definitions. |
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Post by sloanjh on Jul 28, 2019 8:01:06 GMT -6
Just to point out in real life absolutely no predreadnought battleships, armored cruisers, or early dreadnoughts were converted to aircraft carriers. Only upcoming dreadnought classes were converted (Normandie-Bearn, Amagi-Akagi, Tosa-Kaga, Borodino-Izmail(Cancelled), Lexington) along with the modern dreadnought Eagle and the modern Courageous class battlecruisers. Good point. In thinking about this thread, I've wondered if it's "gamey" to be keeping those Bs around in MB even if I don't use them in the next war. And then I thought about the mothball fleet IRL - I remember seeing a bunch of old CA in Philadelphia in the 80's when visiting Kitty Hawk(?) during SLEP. Taking a quick look at today's mothball fleet, I see those CA are gone; it's now mostly amphibious TR, Perrys, and Ticonderogas, and CV, although there is still a Forrest Sherman and a Charles F Adams DD. A quick spot check gives a typical time since decommissioning of ~10 years. My thought here is two-fold: 1) the point of a mothball fleet is that it holds ships for a decade or more past decommissioning. So the idea of keeping old B in mothballs even for 10-20 years past their "decommissioning" is valid. The mothball fleet basically fulfills the same purpose as a hoarder's closet and in a similar vein the vast majority of the ships in it never return to commission. So I don't think it's gamey for me to keep the Bs around in MB and then "realize" that they can be used for CVL conversions. 2) If "mothball" status in RTW really means decommissioning a ship and putting it in mothballs (as opposed to just having it in a much lower state of readiness while still in commission), then pulling a ship out of mothballs should probably be more difficult. I think the perfect mechanism would be requiring a refit to recommission a ship from MB - this would add both the time and expense that seemed to occur historically, such as when the Iowas were recommissioned in the 80s, or New Jersey for Vietnam (8 months according to wikipedia). OTOH, apparently the Korea recommissioning of the Iowas was very quick - only ~6 weeks for Iowa (again according to wikipedia - recommissioning times for the other Iowas don't show up there). So maybe the "(O)" mechanism handles this, possibly with ships in mothballs gaining the (O) flag much more quickly. |
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Post by seawolf on Jul 28, 2019 9:33:11 GMT -6
Just to point out in real life absolutely no predreadnought battleships, armored cruisers, or early dreadnoughts were converted to aircraft carriers. Only upcoming dreadnought classes were converted (Normandie-Bearn, Amagi-Akagi, Tosa-Kaga, Borodino-Izmail(Cancelled), Lexington) along with the modern dreadnought Eagle and the modern Courageous class battlecruisers. Yes, I have thought about that too, and maybe the game is too permissive in that regard, but I didn't want to deprive the player of the possibility. B and CA were probably not so used IRL because of their insufficient speed. There was one cruiser though that was converted, the Vindictive, though she straddled the old and new CA definitions. I definitely appreciate the option to convert them, but my main point is I have no issue with the ai not doing that |
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Post by rimbecano on Jul 28, 2019 14:49:15 GMT -6
Just to point out in real life absolutely no predreadnought battleships, armored cruisers, or early dreadnoughts were converted to aircraft carriers. Only upcoming dreadnought classes were converted (Normandie-Bearn, Amagi-Akagi, Tosa-Kaga, Borodino-Izmail(Cancelled), Lexington) along with the modern dreadnought Eagle and the modern Courageous class battlecruisers. A big part of the reason for this is that the Washington treaty limited carrier tonnage (because of the idea that a BB converted to a CV could be converted back), which made it a better bargain to build new CVs or convert ships under construction that would otherwise be scrapped to comply with the treaty. With no restrictions on carrier tonnage, conversions of obsolete ships would have been much more viable. |
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) and re-engine, then I end up with 21-22kt (which is close enough to my initial battle line speed) and 24-26ac. In two full play-throughs I've kept these ships through most of the game (of course I used to keep my 21kt CL through most of RTW1 
