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Post by rob06waves2018 on Aug 14, 2019 11:01:12 GMT -6
You've got to feel for the men on these destroyers. 8 lost and 5 otherwise damaged. However, their sacrifice won the battle, with my battleships slowed down by lucky hits very early on. It was, in my view, worth the sacrifice.
Couple of discussion points here:
Does everyone use them like this or do people leave them with the capital ships as screening ships?
If so, is it ever worth building big, expensive destroyers?
At what point, if ever, does a destroyer become a painful asset to lose?
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Post by JagdFlanker on Aug 14, 2019 12:17:49 GMT -6
i play admiral mode so i have no choice but to leave them screening my capital ships
i do "move up" my DD escorts so that most screen the flagship, that way i can make a "diving swoop" at the enemy then turn away, turn on flotilla attack, and hope my DDs dive in - they often don't for various reasons until later in game, but always worth a shot
DDs are expendable - you will lose a lot so keep building them. on very large fleets i go with 48 older DDs for TP + 36 newest build on AF
i design them to have 12 torp tubes when i get the tech, size after that depends on the speed i want to wring out of them - i build them with speed engines since who cares if any individual DD has engine problems
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Post by kaguya on Aug 14, 2019 12:51:51 GMT -6
Destroyer suicides are almost mandatory if your ships aren't qualitatively superior to the enemy in my opinion. Once the late 1910s roll around and I get super dreadnoughts rolling it becomes less necessary to sacrifice them, and once carriers come around they're pretty much always relegated to screening. Later destroyers I tend to build bigger for more AA
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Post by mycophobia on Aug 14, 2019 13:35:21 GMT -6
To answer each points.
I have used destroyer both as screen and very aggressively, usually depends on if I can rely on my Capital ship to beat the enemy equivalents without having to rely on destroyers. If my capital ship are being out classed by the enemy I would try to get some destroyer charges in if the condition are favorable (e.g somewhat poor weather, good positioning). I play on rear admiral so sometime I make take more direct control but usually leaves it flotilla attack since I tend to lose my destroyers when I directly order them around xD
I also ditch some destroyer to make suicide charges on the enemy fleet to cover retreating capital ship, although If the enemy turn away early I will pull the destroyer back, no point losing them if the job is done.
I think big destroyers are definitely more suited for screening duty, but since larger DDs are more tanky and can kill some enemy screening DDs, I can see them having some value in a more aggressive role, But I tend to keep my DD in the 1100-1200 range for the most part if I plan to use them aggressively.
I think the only time destroyer losses are painful is when you realize you are at risk of running out of capable front line destroyers. Their size and cost are relatively tame compared to most other ships that I only care about my current stockpile of destroyers rather than quality of individual ship.(Then again, I rarely, if ever go over 1500 ton.) If suiciding a destroyer or three sinks me a BB I'd gladly do it, but I try to be conservative about when to go on these runs, since its also pretty easy to have destroyers smashed to pieces by secondary guns without much to show for it, and you don't have a infinite stockpile of these things.
Recently I've experimented with making slightly smaller, more torpedo focused, wartime destroyer that I can pump out quicker and use for suicide missions. While keeping larger, usually better armed line destroyer on screen until necessary.
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Post by ulzgoroth on Aug 14, 2019 14:00:26 GMT -6
If a destroyer is ever painful to lose, it seems like you probably should have made it a small light cruiser instead. Of course, 8 destroyers is painful to lose if you don't have 8 more handy as immediate replacements.
In my current game, I'm building more 600 ton than 900 ton destroyers, for a few reasons. The core one is that I don't (or at least didn't) have anything I really needed to put in the extra tonnage - they can't cram in more midline weapons and was lacking multi-tube torpedo mounts.
At the high-tech end, I find 1100 ton destroyers with efficient and powerful single 5" mounts pretty appealing. Going bigger seems to pretty much necessitate going to double turrets with much higher weight-per-gun to make use of the tonnage, unless you're maybe piling on lots of off-centerline torpedo mounts.
I've always found the firepower bump from going to 4" or 5" guns irresistable, though if you're going for a strict 'fleet torpedo boat' role maybe very small boats with minimal artillery would work.
It seems like the nature of the fleet builder is unfriendly to having different battlefield concepts represented within the same ship class. If you've got 2000 ton heavy screen boats and 600 ton suicide attack boats at the same time, is there any way to be sure you won't wind up with them being stuck in the same division?
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Post by dorn on Aug 14, 2019 14:11:30 GMT -6
My strategy with destroyers is to be cheap and powerfull. The speed is the most costly thing so I limit speed to 33 knots for most of the game. Than I limit later destroers to 2 torpedo tubes with reloads. It gives them 16 and later 20 fishes, usually enough. 3x2x5" or 4x2x4" guns are usually powerfull enough to fight another destroyes. Such destroyer can be build in 30s for only about 6-7M. Issue is that every knot of speed costs enourmously.
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Post by rimbecano on Aug 14, 2019 15:12:37 GMT -6
Couple of discussion points here: Does everyone use them like this or do people leave them with the capital ships as screening ships? If so, is it ever worth building big, expensive destroyers? At what point, if ever, does a destroyer become a painful asset to lose?
- I pretty much always assign destroyers to support role and have flotilla attack on whenever I'm in contact with the enemy. Capital ships are screened by cruisers (often I'll recall my scout division for this purpose once in contact with the enemy), or left unscreened (copious secondary batteries for anti-destroyer work are a big part of my build doctrine).
- I always build the biggest destroyers I have the tech for, and tend to have well over a hundred by mid game (I always play with very large fleets), though the older ones tend to be used for TP. "Big, expensive" is relative, they're still cheap compared to battleships.
- Heavy losses in a new class hurt, as do heavy losses in remote sea zones where I don't have many ships stationed, or destroyer losses without managing to sink enemy warships. All in all, though, even the biggest destroyers are usually expendable.
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AiryW
Full Member
Posts: 183
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Post by AiryW on Aug 14, 2019 17:23:51 GMT -6
At what point, if ever, does a destroyer become a painful asset to lose?
A couple years after I realize I built them too big.
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Post by gabeeg on Aug 14, 2019 20:27:12 GMT -6
I love Destroyers almost as much as I love my CLs. My main two uses for my destroyers are:
On the offense, once I get a few hits in to be enough to slow down one or more of the opposition, or visibility is poor and brings the fighting in close, I let the destroyers loose. I aim for speed and lots of tubes for large salvos of torpedoes. I recall them quickly though so as not to leave the vulnerable little buggers to get be decimated. (I research light forces and fleet tactics to get then effective quick as I can (torpedoes as well with some nations)
On the defense I use them when I want to beat a path to my nearest home port due to battle damage to my capitol ships or I am just plain out matched in speed and firepower by the opposition. I retreat and once the opposition starts to close the range and become effective I loose the destroyers to disrupt their formations and get them to lose range...I may need to recall and let loose a few times to get home safely or make it till evening...but it works pretty well...but this is hard on the destroyers and you will take loses, but better than losing capitol ships.
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Post by director on Aug 14, 2019 22:00:08 GMT -6
If I am stronger, I like to draw the enemy capital ships to me, forcing them to endure my fire while trying to close... and then throw DDs in their face when they are too close to dodge. If I'm weaker, threatening and withdrawing a torpedo attack can get the enemy to back off when I need: the AI will honor the threat and hopefully you can keep your DDs intact. The AI immediately recognizes when you 'raise the flag' for a destroyer attack, so it is viable to command a torpedo attack, wait a few moves and then call it off. Enemy capital ships tend to flinch when you hit the torpedo attack button, which can give you some manuevering room.
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Post by arminpfano on Aug 15, 2019 1:40:20 GMT -6
Does everyone use them like this or do people leave them with the capital ships as screening ships?
If so, is it ever worth building big, expensive destroyers?
At what point, if ever, does a destroyer become a painful asset to lose?
1) I found DD suicide runs the most efficient tactic available, playing in Captain mode. Especially in early game they easily wipe out complete battle lines. A typical setup for 1904 or so: 4 CA of mine and 20 DD in home area (all CL sent away to colony war), meeting 6 B and some CL and DD. CA retreat, DD flank left and right, enemy will try to reach the CA, until it is too late to avoid the DD attack. Melee and chaos, all enemy B get torpedoed several times. My CA come back and sink the remaing CLs etc. So actually I never use DD for screening purposes. My capitals are able to care for themself.
2) I stick to 600 ts DD with four single centreline tubes and minmal guns, they are dirt cheap and easily rebuild if lost. Then I switch to 1500 ts boats (with 3 x 3 tubes and whatever 5" can be mounted) as soon as they are available, converting the remaining smaller ones to ASW boats. By then the suicide runs are much more difficult due to better secondary guns, I only do them at night now. At this point my BCs usually are larger, faster and stronger than everything the enemy floats, so the roles are switched - first a gun duel, then the DD sink the damaged and slowed capitals.
3) These big DDs are a pain to lose, but still expendable. Actually more are sunk by enemy subs than in battle.
A side effect of this style: I skip all "destroyer action" type battles in early and mid game, because the 600 ts attack boats are not able to fight a gun duel at all.
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Post by jishmael on Aug 15, 2019 10:42:42 GMT -6
I think the use of destroyers depends heavily on year and general doctrine choices.
I've had a lot of success in my last run with Japan by focusing torpedo and light forces tech (among some others) in the beginning my dds were 1 alibi gun, as many fish as can fit and good speed. Especially critical for maximum effect on Suprise attacks.
These go on really aggressive runs, preferably cutting at a 90degree angle through enemy battle lines to split the enemy fleet in two, leaving the cutoff part to be mauled at a disadvantage
As the game progressed I introduced a second class of cheap 900ton dds with maximum asw equipment while gradually shifting the role of screen and Escort from CL to bigger dds.
My last dd classes were pretty much tiny CL, 5" dp guns in dual mounts and about 16 torps with reloads and max mines, speed at I think 34 knots. These are surprisingly durable and stable enough gun platforms to deal significant damage to enemy dd swarms, shifting them to a safer and more careful role from the early suicide runs.
A squad of 4 to 6 of those is actually super scary to CL and is a very capable convoy Escort.
This allows my CLs to shift from lightly armed 6000ton scouts to heavy-duty escorts around 10k with 6"autoloaders, at least 6 tubes and maximum mines. Those can reliably fight of the bad late game ca the ai builds and/or do flanking runs on enemy carrier groups unless screened by BC or BB.
So basically at this point the CLs go for the aggressive push as soon as the enemy fire is focused on my caps and the dds hunt enemy dds and finish whatever gets incapacitated.
But really for me the importance of a pure asw class starting in the 30s can not be overstated, even with way over 600asw from those, old torpedo dds refit for asw and planes I still lost ridiculous amounts of shipping to subs even in the 50s.
For the record none of my bbs and bc came without at least one double tube per side, further freeing my dds for other duties
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Post by JagdFlanker on Aug 15, 2019 11:18:19 GMT -6
agree with the dedicated ASW DDs once you can't refit older DDs with newer ASW tech
i try to design them with even-numbered tonnage so they get the extra point of ASW rating - always good to have lots of upgrade room available anyways
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Post by griffin01 on Aug 19, 2019 10:33:36 GMT -6
I build them big and in large numbers. 5x2 5" with 1x4(5) centerline and 2x2 side torpedo mounts gun-focused destroyers for securing the superiority in light forces, 6x2 4" DP and 1x4(5) torpedo tube destroyers for assisting the former and AA, and 3x2 5" with 4x4(5) torpedo tubes torpedo boats for crippling the enemy battleline. Additionally, 800/1000 t dedicated escorts for TP and ASW. They do compete with my oversized battleships for funds, though...
(5) because quintuple torpedo mounts are not a given in a timely manner.
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Post by cv10 on Aug 19, 2019 17:31:38 GMT -6
At what point, if ever, does a destroyer become a painful asset to lose?
A couple years after I realize I built them too big. This. I try to keep my DDs at around the 1100-1500 ton range. The big 2000+ ton DDs can be pretty darn fierce, but break the bank.
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