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Post by captainloggy on Oct 12, 2019 8:22:47 GMT -6
These Poveros look quit good so far. A few thoughts: most German designs seem quite inefficient in terms of broadside firepower. Also, I'd discard the 29kn variations, speed is expensive and not needed if these vessels are to serve as "smaller sisters" to the Milanos. My preference would be for I2 or U2.
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Post by dizzy on Oct 12, 2019 8:27:36 GMT -6
July 1914
Personal log - the 3rd of July 1914
Our security agreement with USA has just expired. It is quite a pity as we can benefit from USA industry capacity, technology and their ports. I ask Read Admiral Dizzy to come to my office. I officially name him as chairman of new committee Overseas trade protection and ask him to make a report on that issue. Questions are simple with taking into consideration French Navy as enemy. What are our possibilities to protect overseas trade lines where we have no bases (mainly Northern Europe)? Which ships we have could be useful? What ships we need to build to secure our trade in case of war? I have informed Rear Admiral that Admiral Captainloggy and Captain Kriegsmeister of cruiser Foggia were named members. The remaining 2 members he can choose.
Afternoon I received message that commissioning of destroyer Ascaro has proceed without any issue. I did not stopped construction of these ship even if I had and still have quite a doubt about their usefulness. Meeting with the Ammiraglio, 3rd of July 1914"Yes, without delay, Ammiraglio dorn ." "I will of course need a report from your staff on several items. In order to assess the risk and need of trade protection from France, I will need their current fleet numbers and submarine counts. I also need to see where our technology for Anti-submarine and Anti-Mine Warfare stand. I have an idea of how to retrofit some of our older Destroyer designs and inexpensively repurpose them for trade protection in short order. If you would also be so kind as to contact the department of foreign affairs and have our informants provide an up to date assessment on the enemy ASW technology, I would appreciate it. This will inform me of how best to refit those DD's. Please have your staff file these attachments and I will forward them to Admiral captainloggy and Captain kriegsmeister 's offices for their opined response on the matter." "As for the remaining members, I would seriously consider Captain connor085 , an up and coming officer that may be able to provide us with useful insight. Let's see how he responds to the matter of this inquiry. Thank you Ammiraglio dorn . If there is anything else you need do not hesitate to ask. I await those attachments." Personal Log 4th of July 1914I was struck at how bright and lively dorn 's eyes were when I first met him a few years ago at a Naval graduation ceremony for new officers before he became the Ammiraglio. We were both there to give speeches. His was better. As tensions with France have risen, so has the weight upon his shoulders. Yesterday in his office, those youthful eyes could not hide the responsibility that weighs him down. I sense it in his step. It used to be as sprightly as his eyes, yet now he moves with the careful gait of a man balancing the tips of one-hundred swords upon him. I do not envy the Ammiraglio or his position. My thoughts are upon the task at hand. To cheaply and efficiently be able to solution the trade protection enigma that faces us. What menacing surprises will warfare tempt us this time? Mines and submarines, new toys for war thought up by men who will never have to face them, their pointy noses and beady eyes buried in tomes and mathematical formulae conjuring up novel ways to hasten all our deaths. Yes I detest them, derisively so, but also am thankful as they counter the enemy efforts to do the same. Bless their evil ways, lest ignorance doom us all. We must realize the old ways are over and embrace these new incarnations of evil whatever they may be... yet, my mind wanders to another topic: the aeroplane. More on that later. I need to go to the docks and inspect some destroyers and talk to their crews...
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Post by dorn on Oct 12, 2019 13:56:07 GMT -6
These Poveros look quit good so far. A few thoughts: most German designs seem quite inefficient in terms of broadside firepower. Also, I'd discard the 29kn variations, speed is expensive and not needed if these vessels are to serve as "smaller sisters" to the Milanos. My preference would be for I2 or U2. I would agree a months ago however after getting intelligence report about new Austria-Hungary cruiser making 30 knots, variant having 29 knots cruiser with still powerful broadside of 6x6" guns and heavy armour seems quite appealing.
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Post by dorn on Oct 12, 2019 14:53:51 GMT -6
10th of July 1914
from: Admiral Dorn, chief of Regia Marina to: Rear Admiral Dizzy, chairman of Overseas trade protection committee
Dear Rear Admiral Dizzy,
I am quite satisfied how quickly you take your responsibility and enthusiastic make needed action. I gratulate you with your choice of remaining members of Comittee, both Captains are experienced in this matter and I have full confidence in you.
I have sent to you all materials you need. You will make your opinion yourself but I think that our fleet is probably best in world relating to anti-submarine warfare. Credit goes to Admiral Captainloggy, who made it happen through investments into technology and large numbers of small escort vessels. As you know our trade is going by land through France, Austria-Hungary and small amount through Switzerland. Our largest trade partners overseas are USA and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In case of war on continent with France and Austria-Hungary our possibilities to be supplied by railroads is very limited and thus our merchant navy become much more important than in peace times. Our fleet composition is based on operation in the Mediterranean, protection of trade in this area, providing support of our land forces and fight enemy naval powers. However our fleet was not built with intention to operate outside the Mediterranean and on opposite our merchant fleet would need to opperate in distant seas to ensure supply of vital raw materials and military product for our war effort. In case of war with Austrian Navy I can see no issue with that and you know about our plans to deny access outside Adriatic Sea to Austrian ships. The situation completely change in case of war with France. French Navy with large naval bases in Atlantic can easily attack our shipping outside the Mediterranean and we have no plans to fight their efforts to sink our merchant navy. This means great concerns to me as it could cause our demise even if we are able to blockade French fleet in the Mediterranean. I need some clear plans how we can deal with such threat. What type of ships French Navy could use, what ships we needs to deal with them and are able to operate so far from our bases. I expect some recommendations with some estimated costs of such actions as I need to find some funds in our budget for that actions.
I consider this Committee important and I will provide maximum support to make this report.
Yours sincerely
Admiral Dorn chief of Regia Marina
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Post by dizzy on Oct 12, 2019 22:54:07 GMT -6
11th of July, 1914
Thank you, Admiral Dorn, I have the files and will forthwith be making my report to your office. Expect it shortly.
Respectfully,
Rear Admiral Dizzy Chairman of Overseas Trade, Regia Marina
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Post by dizzy on Oct 13, 2019 1:25:12 GMT -6
12th of July 1914Admiral Dorn, I have reviewed the matter and your statement in its entirety. Allow me to point your attention to possible solutions without the use of our navy. As you previously stated, railroads are a vital source of trade. So in the event of war, the French will deny the use of them to us. We must find alternative means of transportation that also avoid their bases in the North Atlantic. This is unfortunately impossible with Great Britain. Without any bases of our own in the North Atlantic, we have no means by which we can stand up to the French in this sea zone. However, all is not lost. the British have colonies in Africa. Supplies sent there can be diverted to us. This, however introduces several new problems, the first of which is how do we get those supplies to Italy? I anticipated this query and stopped by the Transportation Minister's office yesterday and obtained a copy of the most up to date map of African Railroads. This is dated 1908 and was compiled by the Wells Missionary Map Company in Chicago, USA. We could have our supplies from the USA sent through Senegambia, shipped along rail lines to the Niger River, floated downriver, across more rail lines into Niger where they would be met with the supplies from the United Kingdom. Then they would be furthered along into Germany's Cameroon and finally sent through the Belgian Congo up towards Egypt's port of Alexandria and from there we would have no problem finally transiting it to Italy. There would be areas of French resistance along the way, so these daily convoys would have to be armed and protected, further complicating the transport process. However, studying this and reviewing trade notes and railway connections, this is not going to be possible. There are simply no rail lines that connect between Victoria Falls, and Khartoum. Not only that, for the daily number of supplies needed, we are talking thousands of tons a day, we would be attracting the most unscrupulous lot imaginable bent on raiding, thieving and holding hostage every box, container, and person along the route, which needless to say is a very long way. This is simply out of the question and beyond our current logistical support. So what are our other alternatives? Well, the Ottoman Empire will not engage in favorable trade with us at this time, as they are still smarting from the loss of Libya and Rhodes. The Black Sea trade will help from Russia, but they amount to only 23% of expected supply totals. Germany will assist us as well, but we would be fools to count on too many allies from which France has equal influence. That leaves us with the Horn of Africa and the Suez Canal. France will interdict all supplies headed for the Straight of Gibraltar. Therefore, allied supplies will have to come by boat to the west coast of Africa, refuel, head south around the Horn, and refuel again on the eastern coast before transiting up the Red Sea, through the Suez Canal and finally to Italy. We can insure the safety of these supplies only after they pass through the canal. Before this, we run into two problems, but these are not insurmountable. First, France has a colony in the Middle Congo. Judging by my latest reports, their base there will not support a large naval presence. This will be to our favor. Secondly, while the British will allow us use of the Suez Canal, so too will the French be afforded the same, unfortunately. This means any unchallenged French naval sortie in the Mediterranean may transit through the canal at the most inopportune time. Combine this with their base in both Djibouti and Madagascar, France has double our naval base capacity in this region. This must be rectified to ensure the safe passage of trade whether or not it comes from around the Horn or from the Far East. Here are my recommendations in order to affect the safe passage of trade through these regions. 1.) Our base in Eritrea will need to be reinforced and expanded. The French know that base is a threat and I would expect them to mount an invasion if they were able to mass a fleet there. We must deny them this by increasing our base capacity and making sure the fleet we station there will defeat any French fleet on a long term basis.
2.) Since we have no base in West Africa, we must endeavor to design a new type of light cruiser with long range capability that will be able to bring the fight to the enemy and always win. Due to the enemy not having a large base capacity, we could attain dominance in this region with a light cruiser having the following criteria: Heavily armed and armored. High speed to intercept enemy raiders and disengage from battlecruisers. Long range to ensure operation for extended periods of time away from friendly bases. I envision the need for three such vessels. In addition, 3 to 6 supporting destroyers should round out this strategy as optional.
3.) Examining informant reports on the ASW technology of France has me convinced that this is the only good news we have to deal with concerning trade protection duties. We have a surplus of slower short ranged Destroyers that can be used in ASW warfare in the Mediterranean. We far outnumber French Submarines in this respect and that is where these older DD hulls will help. We have a couple of specific hulls, the two MoscaUS DD's are medium range vessels and can be put on Trade protection in West Africa. Beyond that, we can use the Turbine class DD's for both West and East Africa trade protection. That leaves us with only 20 Quintino Sella Class Destroyers for Fleet duty, which is on the low side. I would bolster this number with a newer 900 ton destroyer class as France is starting to build 1100 ton destroyers.
4.) At this time, I do not see the need for specific construction of KE class vessels when there are no specific rebuilding concerns that face our current crop of destroyers that require them to be tailored for a specific threat, and believe that we are in a good position to achieve our goals with our existing fleet with the exception of Point 2 above. With Tensions low, our Destroyer fleet may continue to be left in Mothballs for the time being.
5.) Lastly, may I point out that our nation is ranked last in Submarine construction, one important weapon of war that will affect trade quite considerably. And I hear a new invention from America will help control this menace. The private sector is eager to take new proposals for Flying Boat designs. I hear the United States is entertaining the use of these new aircraft in spotting submarines in the water. This may prove useful.
Thank you for the opportunity, Admiral. My office stands ready to assist in any future endeavor. Respectfully, Rear Admiral Dizzy Chairman of Overseas Trade, Regia Marina
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Post by dorn on Oct 13, 2019 13:47:51 GMT -6
Personal log - the 13th of August 1914
I have just come back to my office after we visited Sardinia through way back from British Isles onboard battleship Taranto. She is really nice ship, has excellent seaworthiness. However her guns are quite disaster. This was one reason of this journey. Vickers presents us new triple 15" and 16" guns turret. Their 15" triple turret is much better than ours, their guns much more accurate with heavy shells giving them better penetration and their turret is much technologically advanced and quite reliable. Their 16" guns are even better than 15" guns and the turret design is same and share same characteristic. It give me idea to think about refitting Taranto class with Vickers triple 15" guns turret. I will need to analyze it.
The second reason of visit was visiting Amstrong-Whitworth and their offer to build for Regia Marine cruisers. It was certainly interesting as they propose all or nothing armour for cruiser but it seems that their technology of boilers is something they are not proud of. But I was qutie suprised that they are able to build such ships in 17 months.
The Sardinia visit was planned before as I ordered to all mails be sent to Sardinia to have time to get through them on way back to Italy. I have just finished answer to Real Admiral Dizzy report of his committtee. It was truly as I expected, in case of war with France we are completely unprepared for any kind of trade warfare except defense against submarines.
I will add to my personal log whole letter as it shows my cornern best.
From: Admiral Dorn To: Rear Admiral Dizzy, chairman of Overseas Trade Committee
Dear Rear Admiral Dizzy,
I was delighted to read recetly your report on Overseas trade warfare. I agree with your that current Regia Marina cannot protect trade lanes in the Western Mediterranean. This is something I have been aware almost for a year. And this is something that need to change as I do think that Regia Marina cannot protect trade going through Suez Chanel and Cape Horn not taken into consideration risk of dependency on British. I take it as granted that Regia Marine must have and will have capability to protect trade in the Western Mediterranean.
Related to your points: 1. I take it as not important as Regia Marina cannot have larger fleet in Massaua to be stationed here. There is no possibility to easily reinforce Massaua at time of war with France as all force will be occupied in the Mediterranean. 2. I completely agree to have at least such 3 cruisers. I would like amendment to report that there will be detailed proposal for such cruiser. And that it will evaluate all of our classes (all subclasses of Cagliari class and Milano class under construction) for such duty. If they can be used in emergency for such role, especially Cagliari class which is no more suited for duty in the Mediterranean. Neverthless I expect I can find about 60 to 70 M for such cruisers in 1915 budget.
3. I completely agree what report stated. But for interim solution I consider Turbine class as available to temporary substitute losses on fleet destroyers. There is no funds for construction program of destroyers in 1914 and 1915. 4. Agreed. 5. I agree with points raised in that report however I do not think that submarines can make more than force French Navy to sent all merchants through North Atlantic ports. We need submarine with larger range than our Otaria class submarine.
Yours sincerely
Admiral Dorn chief of Regia Marina
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Post by dizzy on Oct 13, 2019 16:38:26 GMT -6
I'm partial to the G/E3 designs, but dislike the ammo count. What would it take to add 20 rounds per gun?
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Post by dorn on Oct 14, 2019 10:07:56 GMT -6
I'm partial to the G/E3 designs, but dislike the ammo count. What would it take to add 20 rounds per gun? Too much to go to 140 rounds without overweight.
E3 - 130 rounds - it is possible w/o any significant increase but no free tonnage
G3 - 130 rounds - 18750 - it is 5 % increase
E3 - 140 rounds - 18683 - it is 5 % increase
G3 - 140 rounds - 19149 - it is 7 % increase
130 rounds is usually enough.
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Post by dorn on Oct 15, 2019 12:36:25 GMT -6
August 1914
Personal log - the 17th of August
I have finally decided that variant G1 is the winner. It was tough decision, firstly I choose best variant from each type, which G1 win because is cheap and have AoN armour. E2 win in powerful version of cruiser and G3 in fastest version as having AoN armour and just marginally more expensive than I3. Than I consider that the 7th gun for broadside is not as important and that costs for 1 knot to going 29 knots is more than 10 %. Especially when new type of cruiser will be needed for trade protection duty as mentioned in report from Rear Admiral Dizzy.
I decided to name the class after cancelled cruiser Padua.
Personal log - the 21st of August
Our first cruiser of Milano class Verona has been commissioned. They are really powerful, as seaman on their bridge I would be happy however as officer at desk my concerns about being expensive still remains. I need to now if I can scrap old cruisers Cagliari class but Admiral Dizzy need some time to make amendment to his report.
As Trentino finished working up I get report. She is certainly a little better shape as the second ship of her class. However her turrets are same issue.
Personal log - the 24th of August
Today another 7 destroyers were commissioned and send to mothball fleet. Luckily my day ends good as we got offer from United Kingdom to buy new process of better steel quality for 4.45M. We quickly agreed with local industry start implement these method. And another good news comes that Ansaldo has solved issue with turrets and gun mounting up to 8" caliber. I hope they will come with triple turrets too. I get regurarly report about foreign ships: Austria-Hungary has commissioned brand new class of battlecruiser Slavonien - 27900 tons, 25 knots, 6x13" guns, 8" belt armour
Germany has commissioned the second battlecruiser of Graf Spee class - 27500 tons, 25 knots, 8x14" guns, 12" belt
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Post by dorn on Oct 15, 2019 12:40:13 GMT -6
I'm partial to the G/E3 designs, but dislike the ammo count. What would it take to add 20 rounds per gun? Firstly I thought I would choose G3 design however when I realized that I will need in near future another class of trade protection cruiser I decided one of the cheaper designs.
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Post by dizzy on Oct 16, 2019 0:53:52 GMT -6
Correspondence to Admiral Dorn, 22 August, 1914
Admiral Dorn, this news comes at a most inopportune time. Instead of being able to tend to fleet concerns and ambitions, at the behest of the Naval Minister, a delegation of naval officers including myself have been selected to represent the Regia Marina of the Regno d'Italia on a goodwill state visit to Washington, D.C. where I am to meet the Vice President and other dignitaries, play nice and talk world affairs.
I am officially tasked with ensuring trade protection between our nations should France attempt to interfere in future conflict. But the minister pressed me to look for ship building opportunities in U.S. dry docks for future fleet acquirements. However, the real reason I'm going is to pay close inspection to their building of the U.S.S. Ticonderoga, the largest Battlecruiser ever constructed. Spies have informed me via the minister that it is a response to the Germans laying down the Chemnitz class Battlecruiser of 28,600 tons displacement and is expected to achieve sea trials next year. The French Dunkerque class is also worrisome. The minister also says the British Tiger class Battlecruiser already eclipses our BC concept design, with more 16 inch guns, a better secondary and faster speed. It is possible, in light of these new revelations, that we reconsider the building of the Leonardo Da Vinci until we illuminate these other unknowns. Without more intelligence on the specific design of these new battlecruisers perhaps our efforts to achieve parity are premature. I will, of course, leave this decision to you.
In regards to the Caglieri class, the Foggia, in particular, has my blessing for the scrappers torch. I have personally visited that ship and her crew and it is the most disliked vessel in the fleet by far. A wretched excuse for a boat it is. No one can get the plumbing to work, the crew have to use buckets or lean over the edge of the deck and dysentery runs rampant among the sailors. Mechanically, the turrets also frequently get stuck facing starboard. The wharf personnel have pleaded with me to anchor her away from dockside in the bay because of the smell. What we were thinking ordering this from Russia I will never know. The French D'Entrecasteaux class CL is expected to be faster than our Caglieri designs, but that is speculation. Prudence is justified as our second class CL's need to be able to disengage from a superior foe and if my fears are realized, all they will do is die gallantly.
Thus, before my trip departs I have compiled redesign specifications from our best engineers for your review. They say they can rebuild the Caglieri class engines with conventional coal fired boilers to achieve 27 knots without going overweight at a cost of under a million for 12 months. If we were to be so bold, we could switch to newer oil firing engines and achieve an outstanding speed of 28 knots, but the cost is prohibitive at 1.1 million for 15 months. I leave the decision up to you, but I would recommend scrapping them all and building more of the Milano, a fine ship she will be.
Good luck with your decisions, Admiral Dorn. As the French say, I will bring back some souvenirs for you! See you in four months.
Regards,
Rear Admiral Dizzy Chairman of Overseas Trade Protection, Regia Marina
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Post by dorn on Oct 16, 2019 12:16:07 GMT -6
September 1914
Personal log - the 2nd of September 1914
Yesterday the visit from Norfolk Naval Shipyard departed. They tried to persuade me to order battlecruisers and cruisers from them however I cannot accept any delay in construction of new battlecruisers. Relating to new cruisers I told them if they are able to give me designs for such cruiser free of charge I will order 2 cruisers from them but we have not find any common ground. Neverthless I sent personal letter to Rear Admiral Dizzy to review their new 16" guns as I expect new project of capital ships started soon.
I have just ordered Leonardo da Vinci class battlecruiser from Blohm & Voss. I can see concern of Read Admiral Dizzy that there are not best battlecruisers under construction. I do not share same pessimism. At worse only Royal Navy Tiger and USN Ticonderoga could be probably a little better however any of these navies will be not our enemy. The same is true for Germany as they have not fleet to send into the Mediterranean and we have very good reletions with Austrians. My only concern is French Navy a thus we need new battlecruisers be ready as soon as possible. I do not expect Dunkerque class be better than our ships. I have agreed with Blohm & Voss that they increase priority of Leonardo da Vinci and they give me word that ship will be ready in 28 months.
Personal log - the 11th of September 1914
The first two Cagliari class cruisers are going to be scrapped.
I am still thinking about Taranto class as I get some offer from Vickers about rebuilding Tarantos with their 15" triple turrets. Variant A - 32M - new turrets with excellent BL 15" Mk I guns Variant B - 39M - new turrets with excellent BL 15" Mk I guns with 13" front and 5" top armour, decreasing shells per gun to 95, adding 1" deck armour to 3.5", replacing secondary guns to 12x5" singl mounts I think that Variant A is out of question as ship would get better guns but nothing more. Variant B seems interesting however price 39 M is quite high as I expect that new class would costs about 110-120M so for 3 rebuilds I can have one new ship. But these refits give not only ships much better guns, but ships would be much better protected against long range plunging fire.
Personal log - the 22nd of September 1914
Milano cruiser and another destroyer have been commissioned and Tantalo and Tullio battleships have finished working up with same issue as previous ships of her class. Afternoon newspapers come with information that France has caught our spy in their shipyard trying to find any information about their Dunkerque class. We agreed with Naval Secretary that we will officially defend our citizen as we hope that French will think that they secure the information about their new battlecruiser not knowing that we have already plans of these ships obtained several months ago.
I ordered Padua cruiser from AG Weser in Bremen. I will order next ship in December. It is expected that their maintence costs would be about 2/3 of Milano class. There is another thing I need to take care of - the budget 1915. I need it to be approved by end of November.
Report from new foreign nations: Royal Navy laid down new Benbow class battleship - 31300 tons
France has laid down the 3rd Dunkerque class battlecruiser - 29100 tons, 25 knots, 8x14" guns, 12" belt armour, 2" deck armour and 10.5" turret armour
Austria-Hungary has laid down Mähren class battlecruiser - 29600 tons
Germany has commissioned battlecruiser Prinz Eitel Friedrich of Graf Spee class - 27500 tons, 25 knots, 8x14" guns, 12" belt armour
Germany has commissioned battlecruiser Hindenburg of her class - 27700 tons, 27 knots, 8x13" guns (w/o B turret), 11" belt armour
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Post by dorn on Oct 16, 2019 13:18:56 GMT -6
October 1914
Personal log - the 2nd of October 1914
I decided to scrap all Cagliari class protected cruiser except the one which was refitted to 27 knots. I have been visiting commissioning of Torino cruiser of Milano class. She got some improvements and is 1 meter longer that her sisters.
Personal log - the 28th of October 1914
I get information that France has laid another Nantes class of fast battleship therefore I officially started new Sereno battleship project. At the first stage I asked her committee about analyzing French Navy battleships and other powers and set-up basic guidlines for new ships with expected budget about 110-120 M. Germany has laid down new battlecruiser of Erfurt class - 31700 tons
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Post by captainloggy on Oct 17, 2019 8:12:21 GMT -6
Honestly, I would save a refit of the Tarantos till we get DP guns and do something like Variant B, but domestically. Our newer 15in guns should be of similar quality to the British models. What would the estimated time for both options be?
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