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Post by jishmael on Sept 5, 2019 23:25:42 GMT -6
Even if that was true, which I have doubts about, good news! Sub 8 inch armor is pretty much universal. Sure, you might not be able to put shells into engine rooms through the thickest part of the belt. But the belt extended and fore/aft hull regions allow you to generate flotation loss by gunfire without doing so. thing is its horribly innefective to sink ships that way there is a reason the meta pre dreadnoughts currently are ships like this they just do not sink and all the HE shells the secondary battery outputs is enough to destroy everything on the enemies structure if the enemy has even a single part of his ship below 2 inches in thickness he dies quite simply because the he shells get through the armor also since it has 10 inches of armor no gun until around 1907 will go through it Too slow, not enough torpedoes. Seriously at 18 knots I wonder how you ever get to shoot at anything with this. Also on the topic, I definitely feel that accuracy is a huge factor in pre dread battles, I think correct positioning against the wind can make a gigantic difference and I haven't seen it discussed. I've lost battles against inferior foes to not hitting anything with my own smoke in my face. |
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Post by dorn on Sept 6, 2019 0:26:39 GMT -6
Speed usually is not important in pre-dreadnought battles. 17-19 knots is fine. I cannot see any advantage giong to 20 knots.
In early years just singl hit in extended part of ship can slow her down much more.
And these ships are usually good for 1 war only.
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Post by jishmael on Sept 6, 2019 0:40:19 GMT -6
How will you ever close the range if your battlelines maximum speed is the same as the enemy?
I've had so many frustrating engagements, especially against the German ai, where I couldn't do anything but watch them sail away, or worse, get my t crossed, loose the race for upwind position or even get torpedoed because of 1 knot difference meaning they ended up a tiny bit ahead of my line.
On the other hand a few more knots combined with patience allows me to A chase the enemy B close the range C get torpedo solutions D slowly overtake the enemy line and cut it off from port/separate it from each other.
I never go below 20kn for Bs and prefer 21
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Post by christian on Sept 6, 2019 3:15:40 GMT -6
How will you ever close the range if your battlelines maximum speed is the same as the enemy? I've had so many frustrating engagements, especially against the German ai, where I couldn't do anything but watch them sail away, or worse, get my t crossed, loose the race for upwind position or even get torpedoed because of 1 knot difference meaning they ended up a tiny bit ahead of my line. On the other hand a few more knots combined with patience allows me to A chase the enemy B close the range C get torpedo solutions D slowly overtake the enemy line and cut it off from port/separate it from each other. I never go below 20kn for Bs and prefer 21 simple use your dds to push the enemy around and use them like a heard dog the ai loves to try and get away from any dd because of torpedoes so flanking around and hearding enemy ships that way works nicely never had any problem with not being able to sink the enemy also 20kn and 21kn is far far too fast for a pre dreadnought you sacrifice too much survability and guns also as mentioned above a single belt extended hit results in -1 to -2 knots |
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Post by christian on Sept 6, 2019 3:41:43 GMT -6
thing is its horribly innefective to sink ships that way there is a reason the meta pre dreadnoughts currently are ships like this they just do not sink and all the HE shells the secondary battery outputs is enough to destroy everything on the enemies structure if the enemy has even a single part of his ship below 2 inches in thickness he dies quite simply because the he shells get through the armor also since it has 10 inches of armor no gun until around 1907 will go through it I'm not sure that ship makes as much of a point as you seem to imagine. It's a perfectly reasonable battleship with all the features you'd expect to see on one. Yes, it's got a very large number of relatively small secondaries and large tertiaries. (Which, incidentally, I can't imagine actually being 'meta'. Pit that ship against itself and the unarmored tertiaries will be wasted awfully fast.) It also has perfectly respectable 10" main armor and 2x2 12" guns.
As for horrible ineffectiveness, I'm not sure what that really means. Either you sink a ship, or you don't sink it. Heavy shells hammering through BE contribute to slowing an enemy down so that they can't escape and can be eventually sunk by copious further gunfire, progressive flooding, and maybe a torpedo or two.
What are you achieving by destroying "everything on the enemies structure", anyway? I remain a bit unclear on the significance there. You'll give them some gunnery penalties for aggregate damage, and could potentially start a fatal fire, but...anything else of note?
the magic of it is that all the secondaries fire high explosive and since no part of the ship is coated in less than 2 inches of armor the outcome is ANY dreadnought that has less than 2 inches of armor anywhere will get quickly eaten up by the secondaries any dreadnought which does not have enough pen to penetrate this things armor (spoiler nothing is penning 10 inches in 1900-1904) and has less than 2 inches of armor ANYWHERE will get killed extremely fast and since 50-70% of dreadnoughts in 1900 have atleast one armor value lower than 2 the outcome is quite predictable once the enemies structural bar is filled out aka structure is destroyed a ship sinks the ships structure collapses on itself which is to say the ship collapses in on itself like what the USS texas was about to (decks fall onto itself the internal structure fails and it collapses) also you understimate the power of fires in 1900 since there is no damage control research fires essentially result in a 50/50 chance of death |
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Post by sloanjh on Sept 6, 2019 7:35:09 GMT -6
once the enemies structural bar is filled out aka structure is destroyed a ship sinks the ships structure collapses on itself I don't believe I've ever seen this happen in RtW or RtW2, and I've seen a LOT of ships with maxed-out structure bars. The only causes for sinking that I've ever seen are flotation, fire, and explosion. |
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Post by jishmael on Sept 6, 2019 8:30:06 GMT -6
How will you ever close the range if your battlelines maximum speed is the same as the enemy? I've had so many frustrating engagements, especially against the German ai, where I couldn't do anything but watch them sail away, or worse, get my t crossed, loose the race for upwind position or even get torpedoed because of 1 knot difference meaning they ended up a tiny bit ahead of my line. On the other hand a few more knots combined with patience allows me to A chase the enemy B close the range C get torpedo solutions D slowly overtake the enemy line and cut it off from port/separate it from each other. I never go below 20kn for Bs and prefer 21 simple use your dds to push the enemy around and use them like a heard dog the ai loves to try and get away from any dd because of torpedoes so flanking around and hearding enemy ships that way works nicely never had any problem with not being able to sink the enemy also 20kn and 21kn is far far too fast for a pre dreadnought you sacrifice too much survability and guns also as mentioned above a single belt extended hit results in -1 to -2 knots Funny how different playstyles and doctrines are. I've never missed any survivability on those. In fact I don't think I've lost one except to offscreen events or incredibly dumb mistakes (steering into the enemy's line at dusk and eating fish) in my last 3 runs. If they're outgunned or outnumbered they simply run. |
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Post by ulzgoroth on Sept 6, 2019 10:23:26 GMT -6
the magic of it is that all the secondaries fire high explosive and since no part of the ship is coated in less than 2 inches of armor the outcome is ANY dreadnought that has less than 2 inches of armor anywhere will get quickly eaten up by the secondaries any dreadnought which does not have enough pen to penetrate this things armor (spoiler nothing is penning 10 inches in 1900-1904) and has less than 2 inches of armor ANYWHERE will get killed extremely fast and since 50-70% of dreadnoughts in 1900 have atleast one armor value lower than 2 the outcome is quite predictable ...So it seems your entire excitement here is to hammer shell splinters into wonky substandard legacy generation predreads? I guess that may work, but I'm not exactly seeing what's impressive about a design being good at beating battleships that are equipped with <2" armor. once the enemies structural bar is filled out aka structure is destroyed a ship sinks the ships structure collapses on itself which is to say the ship collapses in on itself like what the USS texas was about to (decks fall onto itself the internal structure fails and it collapses) ...Not in the game I've been playing, no. That does not in fact happen. Ships with maxed out structural damage bars keep sailing and fighting all the time. also you understimate the power of fires in 1900 since there is no damage control research fires essentially result in a 50/50 chance of death I think I've seen a total of two ships burn out in three campaigns so far, so TBH I'm not too confident of your estimate. |
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Post by christian on Sept 6, 2019 13:16:49 GMT -6
once the enemies structural bar is filled out aka structure is destroyed a ship sinks the ships structure collapses on itself I don't believe I've ever seen this happen in RtW or RtW2, and I've seen a LOT of ships with maxed-out structure bars. The only causes for sinking that I've ever seen are flotation, fire, and explosion. yeah i was actually wrong on the structure damage thing but when a ships structure hits 100% fires kill ships with no way to save them (which is also what the discord told me) so a 100% structure damage ship in addition to all its debuffs will die with 100% chance if it gets lit on fire (which is why full he memes work so well) |
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Post by christian on Sept 6, 2019 13:22:37 GMT -6
the magic of it is that all the secondaries fire high explosive and since no part of the ship is coated in less than 2 inches of armor the outcome is ANY dreadnought that has less than 2 inches of armor anywhere will get quickly eaten up by the secondaries any dreadnought which does not have enough pen to penetrate this things armor (spoiler nothing is penning 10 inches in 1900-1904) and has less than 2 inches of armor ANYWHERE will get killed extremely fast and since 50-70% of dreadnoughts in 1900 have atleast one armor value lower than 2 the outcome is quite predictable ...So it seems your entire excitement here is to hammer shell splinters into wonky substandard legacy generation predreads? I guess that may work, but I'm not exactly seeing what's impressive about a design being good at beating battleships that are equipped with <2" armor. once the enemies structural bar is filled out aka structure is destroyed a ship sinks the ships structure collapses on itself which is to say the ship collapses in on itself like what the USS texas was about to (decks fall onto itself the internal structure fails and it collapses) ...Not in the game I've been playing, no. That does not in fact happen. Ships with maxed out structural damage bars keep sailing and fighting all the time. also you understimate the power of fires in 1900 since there is no damage control research fires essentially result in a 50/50 chance of death I think I've seen a total of two ships burn out in three campaigns so far, so TBH I'm not too confident of your estimate.
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well thing is it does nothing worse than any other pre dreadnought but it does alot better it does as well against a pre dread with atleast 2 inches everywhere as one which does not have so many secondaries does but it kills any ships with less than 2 inches armor everywhere really fast and efficiently and because the section with 1.5 inches of armor is usually the deck armor and even ships with 2 inch deck armor can get shrapnell down the thunnel and damage engines it usually results in the enemy fleet being slowed and you as a result sinking them because of shrapnell going down the deck into the machinery when they slow due to machinery damage you can torpedo or keep killing them through the deck id greatly recomend trying a secondary heavy ships with 2 inches of armor everywhere over a ship which does not have this
"...Not in the game I've been playing, no. That does not in fact happen. Ships with maxed out structural damage bars keep sailing and fighting all the time.
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was wrong on this one 100% structure dmg ships do float but in addition to their penalties for being so damaged they burn down to fires with no way to stop them which is why i confused high structure damage ships for sinking when in fact they just burned down tested it out with some pre dreads in a new game with the excercise function and yeah 100% structure damage ships dont sink but when set on fire they do indeed sink (only managed to get 2 ships to 100% structure damage but when set on fire neither recovered) also it surprised me to an extreme amount how fast 1.5 inch armor ships sink id recomend trying it out on a new save with the exercise battle function |
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Post by sloanjh on Sept 8, 2019 23:34:49 GMT -6
I don't believe I've ever seen this happen in RtW or RtW2, and I've seen a LOT of ships with maxed-out structure bars. The only causes for sinking that I've ever seen are flotation, fire, and explosion. yeah i was actually wrong on the structure damage thing but when a ships structure hits 100% fires kill ships with no way to save them (which is also what the discord told me) so a 100% structure damage ship in addition to all its debuffs will die with 100% chance if it gets lit on fire (which is why full he memes work so well) I don't believe I've ever seen this either. I've very rarely (as in almost never) seen ships lost to fire, and my recollection is that that's always through gradual increase in fire level until the fire rages out of control (at a high level like 10). OTOH, I've had lots of ships with full structure damage bars; it's hard to believe none of them have ever caught fire. |
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Post by antonin on Sept 10, 2019 16:37:04 GMT -6
There is a section of the Rule the Waves 2 manual, which should be included with the demo version of the game, detailing differences between the two games.
Some key (for me) differences between the two games:
The default time frame for Rule the Waves 1 is 1900 to 1925 - the late predreadnought to late dreadnought period, essentially, though slightly overlapping the Treaty/Interbellum period; Rule the Waves 2 can start in either 1900 or 1920 and goes to 1955 by default. Extended end dates are available for both games; Rule the Waves 1 goes to 1950 while Rule the Waves 2 goes to 1972 on the extended end date.
Aircraft play no significant role in Rule the Waves 1, though there is an in-battle event which implies the existence of aircraft. Rule the Waves 2 explicitly features aircraft starting from about 1910 (zeppelins) or 1915 (seaplanes, fighters) and allows the player to build airbases and design and build aircraft carriers; early aircraft usually aren't particularly effective but tend to become dominant, at least in daylight battles, when present later in the game.
Radar does not exist in Rule the Waves 1 but becomes available in the mid- to late-game in Rule the Waves 2; as a result, night and foul-weather engagements tend to be much more dangerous in Rule the Waves 1 than in Rule the Waves 2, especially in the respective late games...
Thanks for the very useful assessment of the two games. I think that I will probably buy RTW1, because I have a great interest in the predreadnought and dreadnought eras, before aircraft and radar ruined everything.  Playing the RTW2 demo has been fun, but I always have trouble deciding what to do... I tend to be a cautious person in real life, and was coasting along as Japan, designing cruisers and building destroyers, and trying not to provoke any of the other powers, when one of my cruisers was mysteriously blown up. Russia was identified as the probable guilty party, and after I declared war the Russian navy so far has been very reluctant to fight. |
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