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Ranges
Jul 16, 2015 12:22:39 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 16, 2015 12:22:39 GMT -6
I just bought SAI and I am having a lot of fun trying my first scenarios. So a couple newbie questions.
First, is there a way to determine the range of torpedos? I know my ships fire torpedos on their own when I am close. However I need an idea of what are the danger zones in which an enemy may be launching torpedos and I need to take evasive action. Also I haven't seen any enemy torpedo depictions. Are they shown and I am just not noticing them?
Second, I can see when I am hitting the enemy from the log. However I don't know if I am getting effective penetrating hits or not. I have noticed that when the enemy is firing, often hits are not penetrating and really causing little to no damage. So how do I determine what are the best ranges to engage an enemy with a reasonable assurance that my hits are penetrating, effective hits? Also I am curious if there is a method to determine what ranges produce plunging fire?
Finally, a non-range question. What is the most effective way to actually finish off a heavily damaged ship? I played the Coronel scenario as the Germans and heavily damaged 3 CA's but managed to actually sink only 1 CA. Gunfire alone does not seem to do the job although every ship I hit with torpedos went down. I also lost the Gneisnau to a torpedo. So I am thinking torpedo attacks are the best method to finish off a heavily damaged ship. Or is there a better method?
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Ranges
Jul 16, 2015 13:14:03 GMT -6
Post by randomizer on Jul 16, 2015 13:14:03 GMT -6
WW1 torpedoes can generally run 8000-10000 yards. You can open the DesignShip2 utility and check the specific model in use but anywhere inside 10,000 and you're entering the torpedo danger area. Effective torpedo ranges in the RJW are generally about 1000 yards. SAI torpedoes will fire at effective ranges driven by relative target/launching unit aspect rather than at the absolute theoretical fuel ranges.
In most cases you will not see enemy torpedoes until they are very close and you may not spot them at all. You may see messages that "Such and such is maneuvering to avoid torpedoes" but you may not see the torpedoes displayed. This is entirely reasonable, all things considered. At night or in bad weather, your first intimation that you're under torpedo attack may be when one of your battleships is hit.
You do not see the immediate effect of hits or penetrations because you would not have that information in real time. After a battle, the assorted logs should show the damage caused in detail. Precisely where hits transition from mostly horizontal to mostly vertical impact is a function of angle of fall, which itself is a function of angle of departure, remaining velocity and a host of other factors. The game models it but uses average values since target orientation relative to the shell at the moment of impact is also a factor in so-called plunging fire. Depending upon the firing calibre, you should see horizontal armour becoming a factor starting when range to target is greater than 50% of maximum range and you can use the range circles to determine this for the primary armament.
Gunfire alone was not a particularly efficient way to sink a ship unless you score a critical magazine hit or caused catastrophic flooding, which is why torpedoes were used so often to sink cripples. Ships sometimes took hours to sink (HMS Warrior and SMS Lutzow at Jutland for example. Although Lutzow suffered at least one torpedo hit, her fatal damage was delivered almost entirely by heavy shells alone) and you are likely to see this in SAI. Sometimes ships will sink out of sight after contact is broken as SAI continues to model damage control after the battle and also models damage inflicted by weather conditions. If the scenario terminates too soon there may not have been enough time for the cumulative damage to achieve a sinking.
Thanks for trying Steam and Iron and hope you enjoy the game.
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Ranges
Jul 16, 2015 13:19:30 GMT -6
Post by ccip on Jul 16, 2015 13:19:30 GMT -6
I don't believe the game lists torpedo ranges - RTW has a new "torpedo range" circle added in the menu, but in SAI I think the torpedoes are standardized by side and type. From what I've seen, both sides have similar torpedoes, with the British having slightly longer reach; and both sides can use torpedoes on two settings - fast and long-range. At long range, I've seen torpedo launches from over 9,000 yards.
Enemy torpedoes are not shown - you only get alerts about them when they come at your ships. But I have noticed that sometimes when you see your own ships suddenly maneuvering away from the enemy, it's an indicator of topedoes coming (but not reported yet).
Both with hits on enemy ships and enemy torpedoes, I think the logic is to limit the information you'd have access to as an admiral. With hits on enemy ships, there's no way to directly know and any information you get about them tends to be very inaccurate. Usually I look for indirect indicators - one good way is to hover your mouse over the enemy ship and see what it says about its damage. Ships with even "Medium" damage or on fire usually indicate some effective hits on them. The other reliable indicator is speed - as soon as you see enemy ships losing pace, that's a certain indicator of damage.
With finishing off ships, it really depends. Closing for torpedo attacks is a good way, but can also be risky. I've lost ships by getting too close to an enemy ship that seems to be fatally damaged, but can fight back. Torpedo attacks to finish are generally safe if a ship has mostly unarmored weapons, since those will be knocked out by fire quickly - but for heavily armored ships, I find that it's better to shoot at them until they're stopped dead in water, then pull back out of firing range, but keep visual contact with them and wait for them to sink. If they start moving again, return to firing range and repeat. Unless you're concentrating a lot of heavy fire on it, even a badly-damaged battleship or armored cruiser will chew up destroyers trying to finish it off, and might torpedo your larger ships if you get too close. Although not very useful as an offensive weapon, I've noticed that submerged torpedo tubes that most capital ships of this period have are nearly impossible to knock out with gunfire and can be a nasty surprise when you're trying to finish them off. So, if you choose to do torpedo attacks, make sure that your bigger ships can back up your destroyers with suppressive fire but stay far enough away for their own safety.
Otherwise, you can bide your time and wait for the flooding and fire to do their job. This is even more true in earlier scenarios and the RJW game, where predreadnoughts would have a lot of trouble sinking each other by direct gunfire - it's the progressive flooding and spreading fires that would usually get them, over the course of hours.
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Ranges
Jul 19, 2015 8:46:09 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 19, 2015 8:46:09 GMT -6
Thanks all!
-----Both with hits on enemy ships and enemy torpedoes, I think the logic is to limit the information you'd have access to as an admiral. ---- I think the logic is to limit the information you'd have access to as an admiral.---
I wasn't looking for feedback on each hit. I was thinking more along the lines of penetration tables in which a commander would use to determine best distances to engage an enemy force with a decent chance of effective hits. How to know your ships are at a distance with a good possibility of achieving effective hits. Right now, I really don't know what are reasonable engagement ranges for achieving hits with a reasonable possibility of penetrating hits. Although CCIP method sounds like a good method although it is based on trial and error.
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Ranges
Jul 19, 2015 9:02:30 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 19, 2015 9:02:30 GMT -6
PS: I was able to find the actual torpedo ranges. First, I loaded the ship data into the ship designer software. Found the torpedo size and type for the specific ship type. Then I went to a torpedo data file in the data folder which gave the actual torpedo ranges. As a suggestion, it would be more convenience to have that information in game on the ship panels.
Also I checked the ship builder/data file for the torpedos at Coronel. They are the 18" d type. Here are the range and speed numbers: 7500 yds at 30 kts and 12,000 yds at 30kts. I wonder if that is correct? The other listed torpedos have the shorter range at a greater speed than the longer range setting. If it is an error, then there is a chance the 18" d type torpedo may be traveling slower than it should at short ranges.
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Ranges
Jul 19, 2015 9:41:08 GMT -6
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 19, 2015 9:41:08 GMT -6
.... Also I checked the ship builder/data file for the torpedos at Coronel. They are the 18" d type. Here are the range and speed numbers: 7500 yds at 30 kts and 12,000 yds at 30kts. I wonder if that is correct? The other listed torpedos have the shorter range at a greater speed than the longer range setting. If it is an error, then there is a chance the 18" d type torpedo may be traveling slower than it should at short ranges. This site might help on the torpedoes. Based on this site, the torpedoes would have been 18 in. Mark VI but there were two versions of this torpedo. Range speed were different. The second might be the modified aircraft version.
www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTBR_PreWWII.htm
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Ranges
Jul 19, 2015 11:04:23 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 19, 2015 11:04:23 GMT -6
Ok, I looked at the site. The closest I could find is the Mark VI* 18" torpedo which has the following ranges and speeds:
5,000 yards (4,570 m) / 35 knots 7,000 yards (6,400 m) / 29 knots
The data from the TorpedoData.dat file has the following for 18" d type which seems the standard Brit torpedo:
7500 yds at 30 kts 12,000 yds at 30kts
They are quite a bit different. I assume NWS has another source showing the longer ranges. Although the part that i wonder about are identical speeds for both short and long range. That doesn't seem right. Also I wonder if I make a change directly to the TorpedoData.dat file, will it change the speed in game?
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Ranges
Jul 19, 2015 18:40:29 GMT -6
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 19, 2015 18:40:29 GMT -6
Ok, I looked at the site. The closest I could find is the Mark VI* 18" torpedo which has the following ranges and speeds: 5,000 yards (4,570 m) / 35 knots 7,000 yards (6,400 m) / 29 knots The data from the TorpedoData.dat file has the following for 18" d type which seems the standard Brit torpedo: 7500 yds at 30 kts 12,000 yds at 30kts They are quite a bit different. I assume NWS has another source showing the longer ranges. Although the part that i wonder about are identical speeds for both short and long range. That doesn't seem right. Also I wonder if I make a change directly to the TorpedoData.dat file, will it change the speed in game? I've reviewed the British torpedoes in Norman Friedman's Naval Weapons of World War 1 which is one of the sources for the game. They have used the most widely used 18 in. torpedo leading in the war and as such, it would be the most likely load carried. I don't speak for the NWS team.
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Ranges
Jul 20, 2015 20:17:02 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 20, 2015 20:17:02 GMT -6
In Freidman's naval Weapons of WW1, does it give different speeds for short/long range for the 18" torpedos?
I haven't been able to locate a 18" torpedo with performance close to the 7500/12,000 yd ranges. The closest I have found so far has been a 21" WW1 torpedo on the NavWar page.
Also all torpedos I have found so far with a short and long range give a faster speed for the short range setting. Which makes me suspect an error in TorpedoData.dat file for the 18" d torpedo with 7500 yds at 30 kts and 12,000 yds at 30kts. The short range normally would be at a faster speed than the longer range.
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Ranges
Jul 20, 2015 20:52:40 GMT -6
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 20, 2015 20:52:40 GMT -6
In Freidman's naval Weapons of WW1, does it give different speeds for short/long range for the 18" torpedos? I haven't been able to locate a 18" torpedo with performance close to the 7500/12,000 yd ranges. The closest I have found so far has been a 21" WW1 torpedo on the NavWar page. Also all torpedos I have found so far with a short and long range give a faster speed for the short range setting. Which makes me suspect an error in TorpedoData.dat file for the 18" d torpedo with 7500 yds at 30 kts and 12,000 yds at 30kts. The short range normally would be at a faster speed than the longer range. I've uploaded two JPG files that should give you the information that you need. I can get more if needed.
Attachments:
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Ranges
Jul 20, 2015 21:34:07 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 20, 2015 21:34:07 GMT -6
Thanks OldPop, I have been doing some goggling and it turns out google books has a preview of Friedmanns book. And page 331 is previewed with the same torpedo data. If Freidmann is right, it is clear that the 18" d torpedo data in the game is not for an 18" torpedo. The ranges are way too long. The data most closely matches with several 21" torpedos-some of the 21" MkIIs or the 21" MkIV with short range speeds of 45kts and long range speeds between 28-29kts.
Also I see Friedmanns book is available for $10 as an ebook. Great price considering what the new and used books are running.
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Ranges
Jul 20, 2015 21:44:30 GMT -6
Post by jagger on Jul 20, 2015 21:44:30 GMT -6
I just checked on wiki and the G-M Brit DD classes all used 21" torpedos. The F and earlier carried 18" torpedos.
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