sage2
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by sage2 on Jul 23, 2015 12:53:40 GMT -6
I would wait and see - I also rarely see launches early on. What I've also noticed is that unless the enemy is sailing a straight course, destroyers will rarely launch torpedoes from maximum range, but will usually need to be a lot closer. Since the torpedo range is miniscule early in the game, that's what you end up with. That said, in some ways torpedoes early on are actually more dangerous than later, because ships don't have torpedo protection or advanced damage control. Often one good shot is all you need. In my AAR game, out of 4 or 5 launches I got in my first battle in 1901, I got a cruiser and a battleship sunk. My destroyers are sailing close enough that I've lost one in each battle due to ramming the enemy battleships by accident. I wonder if what's happening is that, at those very close ranges, the angle to the enemy ship can change very quickly. This in turn means that the torps just can't calculate an angle. They do seem to be effective when they get used. Out of those 4 torp launches, I didn't see any sinkings, but there were two heavy damages. But in a 3rd fleet battle, my destroyers were able to finally sink a battleship. I wonder if there could be some sort of doctrinal thing, e.g. "fire torps even when a solution isn't very good"?
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Post by gord96 on Jul 23, 2015 13:01:48 GMT -6
i noticed in captains mode while manually firing in the early game that the window to get a 'solution' is very small. so probably 90% of the time the destroyers don't fire it is because they don't have a solution. testing again later on with better tech, solutions are much easier to get when firing manually and that shows as the AI will fire more often.
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sage2
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by sage2 on Jul 23, 2015 13:45:38 GMT -6
i noticed in captains mode while manually firing in the early game that the window to get a 'solution' is very small. so probably 90% of the time the destroyers don't fire it is because they don't have a solution. testing again later on with better tech, solutions are much easier to get when firing manually and that shows as the AI will fire more often. Yeah, I think that describes what I'm saying. If you're too far away, the solution is going to be bad. If you're too close, the vectors can change radically too quickly to get a solution at all.
I wonder if at very close ranges (i.e. less than a few hundred yards), whether the restrictions should be relaxed as torp gunners can 'eyeball' their shot.
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Post by gord96 on Jul 23, 2015 14:02:55 GMT -6
I noticed I had way more luck as well early on when I designed my own legacy fleet. I would make sure my legacy destroyers all had 4 tubes and saw they also fired more. Now in 1918 all my destroyers have 6 tubes and fire torpedoes like mad!
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Post by rhetoric on Jul 23, 2015 15:46:25 GMT -6
Well that clears up one of my newbie questions! Can I just ask if I've missed a way of ordering a division to close/take up position to launch torpedoes?
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Post by galagagalaxian on Jul 23, 2015 16:01:55 GMT -6
Yes, you use the flotilla command attack. I can't remember exactly (its been a few days since I played) but to order one you select the division the destroyers are escorting and open the status window. One of the buttons should look like 3-4 little ships. Clicking it should order a flotilla attack. On the main battle screen/map a small all black flag icon will appear in the left side to indicate a flotilla attack is underway.
Note it might take a few minutes for your destroyers to receive the attack order and begin putting it into action, depending on your research into fleet tactics and signalling. Also I'm pretty sure the extra Torpedo Training will make flotilla attacks more responsive in addition to the general torpedo accuracy improvements.
Not sure if CLs can be given a flotilla attack order, I presume so.
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sage2
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by sage2 on Jul 23, 2015 16:45:05 GMT -6
Yes, you use the flotilla command attack. I can't remember exactly (its been a few days since I played) but to order one you select the division the destroyers are escorting and open the status window. One of the buttons should look like 3-4 little ships. Clicking it should order a flotilla attack. On the main battle screen/map a small all black flag icon will appear in the left side to indicate a flotilla attack is underway. Note it might take a few minutes for your destroyers to receive the attack order and begin putting it into action, depending on your research into fleet tactics and signalling. Also I'm pretty sure the extra Torpedo Training will make flotilla attacks more responsive in addition to the general torpedo accuracy improvements. Not sure if CLs can be given a flotilla attack order, I presume so. Ohhhh... I wasn't using flotilla attack. I was just sailing my destroyers be hand. I wonder if that's part of the problem.
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Post by swatter555 on Jul 23, 2015 17:14:58 GMT -6
I just bought the game last night and I have had some strange battles that really baffle me. I started as Japan and went for torpedo-delivery centric fleet and it has turned out horribly (I actually started two games). The first game I launched a surprise night attack on a German fleet. The AI was a total cluster f*** in between a minefield and the tight confines of a harbor. I mean the AI just couldn't get its head on straight. It put the destroyers way out ahead and I had zero control over the battle and they just proceeded to do some peacetime yacht maneuvers while the German fleet slowly woke up and proceed to blast my useless destroyers into smithereens.
My second game I designed what I thought was a good fleet, once again torpedo centric on my destroyers (had swivel mounts and improved torpedoes, trained with night fighting and whatever the torpedo skill is), but this time I commanded the fleet myself. I attacked a French fleet in a surprise night engagement and maneuvered my fleet much better. This time my destroyers couldn't identify 2 enemy cruiser divisions at anchor in the middle of the harbor barely 100 yards away. After we flag down the French flagship and pull alongside and ask them what nationality they are, we then proceed to consider attacking. Now, the fleet decides to do more yacht maneuvers, but in much neater formation this time(equally ineffective as the first attack though). I make a really nice and slow attack run giving them any freaking angle they possibly could need to actually launch a torpedo. After making passes for 20 minutes, the French finally figure out that it isn't a pleasure fleet on holiday surrounding them, but someone is actually trying to attack them, so they started blowing up my destroyers at 1000 yards.
Now I believe everyone when they say torpedoes are junk early on, fine. Ill just sail some ships with actual guns for awhile, but I can't help but laugh when I picture my fleet refusing to launch torpedoes within earshot of an anchored enemy fleet.
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Post by ccip on Jul 23, 2015 18:20:02 GMT -6
I'll give you that - the AI definitely gets a really strange on surprise attacks, mostly early on in the game! I also get very few launches, but normally at least my destroyers still get in, do something, and get out without too much trouble. I wonder if there is a better way of handling it on the AI side.
At the same time, if you look at records of the actual Port Arthur attack these surprise scenarios are modeled on, you'll also find that in fact that was a big clusterfudge in reality - in it, the first wave got spooked by a Russian patrol and had two of the destroyers collide with each other; they then got lost and arrived substantially late and out of any coherent formation; and by the end of the night, the whole force scored a grand total of 3 torpedo hits (out of 16 launches). Not exactly a stellar result either. My surprise attacks in early years of RTW have done not much worse than that.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 23, 2015 23:09:06 GMT -6
Early surprise attacks can be inneffectual, mostly because early torpedoes have very short ranges and are generally unreliable. Later on, suprise attacks have better chances. Still as Ccip says, the historical model wasn't exactly a resounding success, and the game is made to allow for fiascoes as well as successes.
If you plan on using surprise attacks as Japan, it can be a good idea to develop torp tech and consider torpedo and night training. That will increase the chances of success.
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sage2
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by sage2 on Jul 23, 2015 23:18:41 GMT -6
Quick question -- can torpedo launchers on a centerline mount fire? It seems like they wouldn't be able to. The auto-designer is doing this (though I'm moving them to port / startboard locations).
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 23, 2015 23:58:46 GMT -6
Yes they can. But they can only be mounted on small ships like destroyers. Most historical destroyers and some CL had centreline torpedo mounts.
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Post by galagagalaxian on Jul 24, 2015 0:29:07 GMT -6
I think it is worth mentioning that a centerline torpedo launcher can be swiveled to fire to either side of the ship.
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Post by gord96 on Jul 24, 2015 8:07:35 GMT -6
I just bought the game last night and I have had some strange battles that really baffle me. I started as Japan and went for torpedo-delivery centric fleet and it has turned out horribly (I actually started two games). The first game I launched a surprise night attack on a German fleet. The AI was a total cluster f*** in between a minefield and the tight confines of a harbor. I mean the AI just couldn't get its head on straight. It put the destroyers way out ahead and I had zero control over the battle and they just proceeded to do some peacetime yacht maneuvers while the German fleet slowly woke up and proceed to blast my useless destroyers into smithereens. My second game I designed what I thought was a good fleet, once again torpedo centric on my destroyers (had swivel mounts and improved torpedoes, trained with night fighting and whatever the torpedo skill is), but this time I commanded the fleet myself. I attacked a French fleet in a surprise night engagement and maneuvered my fleet much better. This time my destroyers couldn't identify 2 enemy cruiser divisions at anchor in the middle of the harbor barely 100 yards away. After we flag down the French flagship and pull alongside and ask them what nationality they are, we then proceed to consider attacking. Now, the fleet decides to do more yacht maneuvers, but in much neater formation this time(equally ineffective as the first attack though). I make a really nice and slow attack run giving them any freaking angle they possibly could need to actually launch a torpedo. After making passes for 20 minutes, the French finally figure out that it isn't a pleasure fleet on holiday surrounding them, but someone is actually trying to attack them, so they started blowing up my destroyers at 1000 yards. Now I believe everyone when they say torpedoes are junk early on, fine. Ill just sail some ships with actual guns for awhile, but I can't help but laugh when I picture my fleet refusing to launch torpedoes within earshot of an anchored enemy fleet. I did the same strategy with Spain. Small budget so specialized in torpedo boats. Had great success, but you have to micro manage your destroyers on captains mode to do so I found. Early tops are just too unreliable and range is too short for the AI to use effectively. Later on however (after 1910) the AI is much better launching torps and you won't need to micro manage as much, if at all.
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Post by gord96 on Jul 24, 2015 8:13:02 GMT -6
the Bustamante class destroyer is getting me great results in 1918!
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