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Post by brygun on Oct 22, 2019 17:10:59 GMT -6
In my current play through Im playing the UK which starts the game and continues to have massive foreign service requirements.
Playing around with ideas at one point I tried out putting a seaplane with hanger on a corvette. Turns out you can though the catapult isn't an option.
In a similiar way a small or cheap Aviation ship was considered, even a CVL, to provide planes buzzing around.
What Im not sure on is whether that actually gave any benefit.
Submarines though not necessarily sunk suffer interference from planes, even float planes, flying around forcing them to dive or be reported, if not clumsly bomb and stafing attempts.
I believe the floatplanes add to TP (trade protection) by making encounters with raiders more likely. Though in the case of the corvette it ought to be more about just hiding from a powerful raider.
What I was hoping on was to see a better ASW by having a floatplane. Im not entirely sure that having a plane helped at all.
Also, in the role of foreign service I am wondering if the floatplanes provide benefit. Perhaps a small multiplier like x1.25 to account for the scouting helping to avoid bad encounters and warn merchants onto other courses.
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Post by stevethecat on Oct 23, 2019 6:19:44 GMT -6
Considering that the first aircraft to kill a sub in WW2 was a floatplane launched from Warspite it would make some sense.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 23, 2019 8:51:57 GMT -6
Considering that the first aircraft to kill a sub in WW2 was a floatplane launched from Warspite it would make some sense. Actually, the first U-boat sunk by joint attack was the U-55 sunk on 30 January 1940 by the HMS Whitshed, HMS Fowey and a British Sunderland from the 228 Squan RAF/Y. The next was the U-64 on 13 April 1940 near Narvik by a Swordfish from HMS Warspite. She was part of the 700 Sqn FAA/L9767.
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Post by stevethecat on Oct 23, 2019 10:53:07 GMT -6
Considering that the first aircraft to kill a sub in WW2 was a floatplane launched from Warspite it would make some sense. Actually, the first U-boat sunk by joint attack was the U-55 sunk on 30 January 1940 by the HMS Whitshed, HMS Fowey and a British Sunderland from the 228 Squan RAF/Y. The next was the U-64 on 13 April 1940 near Narvik by a Swordfish from HMS Warspite. She was part of the 700 Sqn FAA/L9767. Ok, maybe 'solely by aircraft' would be more accurate, the U-55 losing a gun fight with a pair of surface combatants and then being abandoned while a Sunderland was in attendence isn't quite as black and white for a kill as the Swordfish's 'we dropped a bomb and then the sub blew up'.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 11:27:49 GMT -6
I did a corvette build test confirming that the ASW for the KE is the same with or without a floatplane.
The historical information provided encourages giving ASW for a floatplane. It would mean that BB, BC and others could get a little ASW by having a floatplane.
Query on scaling the plane ASW on the number of planes as AV types might have quite a few.
Repeat suggesting to multiply the FS score for having at least one floatplane for scouting, forcing subs to dive and redirecting merchant traffic.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 23, 2019 11:48:02 GMT -6
I did a corvette build test confirming that the ASW for the KE is the same with or without a floatplane. The historical information provided encourages giving ASW for a floatplane. It would mean that BB, BC and others could get a little ASW by having a floatplane. Query on scaling the plane ASW on the number of planes as AV types might have quite a few. Repeat suggesting to multiply the FS score for having at least one floatplane for scouting, forcing subs to dive and redirecting merchant traffic. A floatplane because of its design, can be a double edged sword. If you fly a floatplane over a submarine you will get one chance to hit it and then it knows that the plane and its host ship are within a certain range. It can now dive and head out, at very deep depth. The plane can fly at 150 MPH, but the ship can only do about 25-30 knots. Once the submarine which probably can only do about 7.6 to 9 knots submerged still has an advantage. If the floatplane signals that the host that it has found a submarine and attack, the submarine might be able to hear that message and use it to escape. It really depends on how far from the host the floatplane actually is? This isn't as simple as it seems. A German Arado 196 had a range of about 665 miles, so that is about 250 miles out, 50 miles across, then 250 miles back. The search pattern is a wedge. if it is one floatplane then it might fly in a circle around the ship. That circumference would be 660 miles. I will let you figure how far it could fly out, and then start the circle pattern. Japanese Aichi Jake had a range of 1231 miles. Our Seagull had a range of 674 miles. So, your specifications for building a floatplane that might be used in such a manner would be to prioritize on range and speed. Don't use bomb load because the form drag on a floatplane is high and it just can't carry much ordnance. Speed can get the plane out to its patrol altitudes and range. Patrol altitudes for ASW generally are very low, but the speed is good to have for a lot of purpose. Range speaks for itself.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 13:48:49 GMT -6
A floatplane because of its design, can be a double edged sword. If you fly a floatplane over a submarine you will get one chance to hit it and then it knows that the plane and its host ship are within a certain range. <snip> Tactically I was thinking of different scenarios. As a simplification the one oldpop2000 suggests is a conventional plane spots, plane drops and mother ship attacks. Sometime in that the sub dives. The flight pattern described is a classic pie wedge to a long way out. Point of discussion: once a ww2 sub dives it is my understanding it no longer has radio functionality so it wouldn't hear a message. A sub though really would wisely assume someone is being told about it. There is also where the plane spots, plane circles. The sub dives to hide so is now slow. A sub hunter, not necessarily the planes mothership, engages. In all cases when the plane sees the sub it would be radioing not just its mothership but the merchant traffic. Most important is that once the sub dives it is now generally slower than the merchants who are being diverted. That attack ability is greatly reduced. It the sub surfaces for daytime pursuit that plane can shadow it a long time. While the floatplane's mothership might only have one plane other motherships or air bases can send planes into that area. Anti-submarine ships, which might be the first floatplane's mothership as oldpop2000 describe, can be sent to the area. Another tactical situation would put the trade protection (TP) as an escort to a merchant or convoy. Now with their own float planes don't fly a classic pie wedge search. Instead one plane zig zags back and forth across the upcoming merchant(s) path and two or more can do more complex patrols. These aren't going far away but closer in using their fuel to circle around the guard positions. These guard positions would move as the merchant(s) move. The goal here being to spot a sub, force it to dive and divert the merchant(s). This spoils the subs set up for the attack. So while the floatplane may only have one pass at dropping on the sub it will greatly disrupt the subs real mission, sinking merchants. Methods which intefere with the sub in this game are rated in the ASW rating, which may at time mean a sinking.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 23, 2019 14:05:47 GMT -6
A floatplane because of its design, can be a double edged sword. If you fly a floatplane over a submarine you will get one chance to hit it and then it knows that the plane and its host ship are within a certain range. <snip> Tactically I was thinking of different scenarios. As a simplification the one oldpop2000 suggests is a conventional plane spots, plane drops and mother ship attacks. Sometime in that the sub dives. The flight pattern described is a classic pie wedge to a long way out. Point of discussion: once a ww2 sub dives it is my understanding it no longer has radio functionality so it wouldn't hear a message. A sub though really would wisely assume someone is being told about it. There is also where the plane spots, plane circles. The sub dives to hide so is now slow. A sub hunter, not necessarily the planes mothership, engages. In all cases when the plane sees the sub it would be radioing not just its mothership but the merchant traffic. Most important is that once the sub dives it is now generally slower than the merchants who are being diverted. That attack ability is greatly reduced. It the sub surfaces for daytime pursuit that plane can shadow it a long time. While the floatplane's mothership might only have one plane other motherships or air bases can send planes into that area. Anti-submarine ships, which might be the first floatplane's mothership as oldpop2000 describe, can be sent to the area. Another tactical situation would put the trade protection (TP) as an escort to a merchant or convoy. Now with their own float planes don't fly a classic pie wedge search. Instead one plane zig zags back and forth across the upcoming merchant(s) path and two or more can do more complex patrols. These aren't going far away but closer in using their fuel to circle around the guard positions. These guard positions would move as the merchant(s) move. The goal here being to spot a sub, force it to dive and divert the merchant(s). This spoils the subs set up for the attack. So while the floatplane may only have one pass at dropping on the sub it will greatly disrupt the subs real mission, sinking merchants. Methods which intefere with the sub in this game are rated in the ASW rating, which may at time mean a sinking. A submarine can dive to periscope depth, then raise its radio antenna and monitor radio transmissions to determine the location of ships if possible and the time allowed for the floatplane to stay in the area. After this has been received, it will lower the antenna and dive deep. It will then run silent.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 15:04:44 GMT -6
A submarine can dive to periscope depth, then raise its radio antenna and monitor radio transmissions to determine the location of ships if possible and the time allowed for the floatplane to stay in the area. After this has been received, it will lower the antenna and dive deep. It will then run silent. Cold war era subs certainly can. Do you have a reference for WW1 and WW2 era subs having raiseable radio antenna? I was under the general impression into WW2 subs had to surface for radio use. Even with a radio mast being at periscope depth means the sub is risking visibility to the plane. The large submarine shape is visible when seen from above. Depth to obscure varying by sea conditions et al. A sub putting a mast will, for the time the mast is up, create a wake that is also chancing visibility. Certainly less visible then being actually surfaced. The plane has still influenced the situation by forcing the sub to slow and submerged.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 15:06:29 GMT -6
Article discussing radios and subs, including a section on underwater radio tech. uboat.net/articles/35.html Mostly a sub could receive powerful low frequency transmissions from shore but was not able to transmit back. Radio direction finding or listening to other radios not discussed but likely ineffective when submerged as the plane would be transmitting in normal frequencies.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 15:24:46 GMT -6
Found a reference to the WW2 Gato class having a periscope depth radio navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0829294.pdf"Her LF loop antenna (allowing long range radio communications at periscope depth) is sited between the periscopes. Removing the fairwater plating and exposing the ribs gave this mod a distinctive look and is what gave rise to the Gato class being called the “covered wagon” boats" Those this also appears to be long range communications not local radio interception.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 23, 2019 15:33:12 GMT -6
Found a reference to the WW2 Gato class having a periscope depth radio navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0829294.pdf"Her LF loop antenna (allowing long range radio communications at periscope depth) is sited between the periscopes. Removing the fairwater plating and exposing the ribs gave this mod a distinctive look and is what gave rise to the Gato class being called the “covered wagon” boats" Those this also appears to be long range communications not local radio interception. Radio direction finding required a loop antenna that could be rotate to focus the detection and peak the incoming signal. U-boats had one mount on the conning tower just behind the position of the Captain on the bridge. If you examine those photos, you will see a loop antenna mounted between the two periscopes. Initially they were fixed but later could be raised and lower from the inside of the submarine. From DF you can get bearing and some range if you practice at it. From there, you can focus you own radio antenna and tune it to the received signal. You might just get it correct, but it wasn't an exact science then as it is now.
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 15:53:05 GMT -6
Radio direction finding required a loop antenna that could be rotate to focus the detection and peak the incoming signal. U-boats had one mount on the conning tower just behind the position of the Captain on the bridge. If you examine those photos, you will see a loop antenna mounted between the two periscopes. Initially they were fixed but later could be raised and lower from the inside of the submarine. I stand corrected and happily informed.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 23, 2019 16:01:13 GMT -6
Radio direction finding required a loop antenna that could be rotate to focus the detection and peak the incoming signal. U-boats had one mount on the conning tower just behind the position of the Captain on the bridge. If you examine those photos, you will see a loop antenna mounted between the two periscopes. Initially they were fixed but later could be raised and lower from the inside of the submarine. I stand corrected and happily informed. Excellent, I enjoy helping and being helped to understand all this technical mumbo-jumbo. The procedure is simple. 1. Detect the enemy ships radio, find the bearing and use doppler to determine if the ship is coming toward you or not. 2. If it is coming toward you, dive, turn away from him, go silent and then dive deeper. His sonar, if he has it, is not as effective against the stern of a ship moving away from the source. 3. Now, if you have time you can monitor his radio with yours if you are lucky. Generally that isn't the best policy except at night. One of my U-boat books does relate instances where the radio told the captain that a merchant was signaling and what the message was. This was U-124. I don't know because I haven't found the details on how it was done but it was done. Here is a link to a site with various pictures of German loop antennas. The loop is essentially a dipole folded into a circle. forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=227366
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Post by brygun on Oct 23, 2019 19:48:31 GMT -6
Good info.
As for the original idea of the floatplane adding to ASW I still believe its a valid suggestion. The sub is "suppressed" by having to dive. Even if it listens the time spent submerged has delayed attacks, merchants diverted and possible more air/ships on the way. Though there is some off set by this radio signal intelligence it is overall an inconvience to the sub. The odd actual damage by the floatplane being really more of a secondary affect.
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