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Post by dizzy on Nov 1, 2019 5:22:28 GMT -6
I thought HAA was better, yet I find all sorts of designs by the AI where, despite having HAA tech, they still use LAA on their designs. Are not HAA better in every way and you should equip your late era designs with all HAA and no LAA or is LAA still useful alongside HAA?
Thanks
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Post by dorn on Nov 1, 2019 6:17:53 GMT -6
I thought HAA was better, yet I find all sorts of designs by the AI where, despite having HAA tech, they still use LAA on their designs. Are not HAA better in every way and you should equip your late era designs with all HAA and no LAA or is LAA still useful alongside HAA? Thanks There is principle of zoning defence. Primary target of AA defence is not shot down as many bombers as possible but protect ship being hit. Think of bomber goes through CAP and AA guns opens fire. Each type is effective at different range. Think you have only HAA guns. If a bomber get through HAA he can make bomber run without any disruption. If you have all type of AA guns, they would shoot all the time than even if do not shoot this bomber it would make bomber run much more difficult. Having double some type of AA guns does not mean you have twice chance to shoot bomber down. It is simulated in game, it was stated that effectivness of AA fire is not linear. LAA losses effectivness as aircrafts are faster because with fast bomber you have leeser chance to shot down bomber before releasing its load.
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Post by dizzy on Nov 1, 2019 6:22:50 GMT -6
So as bombers get faster, get more HAA? So whats the recommended ratio of HAA to LAA?
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Post by brygun on Nov 1, 2019 6:47:45 GMT -6
AA described
Here's my take on explaining AA in Rule the Waves (1& 2)
I will generally stick to game terms with occasional talk of real world affects to illustrate the why and how of game mechanics.
AA stands for anti-aircraft guns. Later there are SAM for surface to air missiles but at the time of this writing they aren’t implemented.
HAA, MAA, LAA stand for heavy AA, medium AA and light AA. Each has a different firing range leading to a different game mechanic. HAA has the longest range, medium moderate and LAA the shortest. We will go through these in order they appear used in battle making HAA the first one to discuss.
We will talk through a sample air attack. The actual air attack being the start of detailed messages. Typically 3-5 strike air craft listed. This number is roughly one flight (a formation size smaller than a squadron but more than a wingman pair).
HAA
HAA is dual purpose guns 3" DP and up. HAA is the longest range. Ships in close formations are able to combine their HAA firepower vs an incoming air attack.
You will a message like:
“BB, BB, BC, CA fire heavy guns
47 points of AA”
The affect of the HAA is applied to damage or destroy planes. AA may also make the enemy miss or abort but we don’t see those details in the messages.
Later in the game HAA 5” and 6” can get proximity fuses. These are especially effective as rather than the gunners guessing when fuses should explode to spread metal fragments these proximity fuses have tiny radars. Those radars notice if and when there is something a few feet away and then explode. This puts those fragments are now right where the planes are.
To put HAA on your ships you need a moderate way up the AA research tech tree. You then have to mount the appropriate 3”, 4”, 5” or 6” gun with the DP selected. Tip: only single and dual gun mounts can be DP.
MAA
The next step is the MAA which are the 40 mm gunes. This is now the target ship defending itself alone. These guns now fire before the enemy plane(s) fire it/their attack. That’s pretty important so lets highlight that again: MAA, like HAA, are calculated before the planes release their bomb or torpedo.
You mount these on a ship by using the right most extra weapons tab. There isn’t any detail on the number of mounts nor graphical placements to draw.
LAA
The enemy survivors will now launch their attack. The LAA guns, of about 20 mm, will be firing. The LAA scores will be after the plane attack. They don’t stop this attack but they do affect whether the planes will ever get home to come back for another attack.
On a side note LAA can also be thought of as .50 cal or 12.7mm guns. That might be early on the tech tree. When the naval planes are early biplanes that would work. Later though ships trade out most of those for 20mm guns.
The IJN used 25 mm guns which have their own history. If you want to simulate IJN 25mm issues then reduce your MAA to few or none and carry lots of LAA. In Rule the Waves you can see that you might hit the planes but those planes are going to be slamming your ships as their attacks come off before the LAA is calculated.
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Post by dorn on Nov 1, 2019 6:51:00 GMT -6
So as bombers get faster, get more HAA? So whats the recommended ratio of HAA to LAA? It is not only about ratio LAA and HAA, MAA are too. There is no best way, you need to try and see effect from logs.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 1, 2019 6:58:26 GMT -6
I value HAA more highly because it provides group protection. It is quite common to see 5 or 6 ships combining their HAA to attack an incoming bombing section. This is especially the case for destroyers. I want my screening DDs to add their HAA to the HAA of the battleship or carrier they are screening. DDs are already hard for planes to hit so I only give them MAA or LAA if I have leftover tonnage. Those lighter guns are purely for self protection and a screen DD is all about group protection.
In bigger, more valuable ships, that are more likely to be primary targets, like BBs and carriers, I still maximize HAA first, but I also make sure that I use every available topside AAA slot, filling up first with the maximum amount of MAA I can fit while leaving enough for a few LAA guns. I want to give each big ship as much chance to turn away or destroy incoming planes as possible.
Of course, AAA directors always come first. Big ships always get 4 before installing any MAA or LAA. For smaller ships, especially DDs, the weight of AAA directors is a problem. This can be particularly difficult when retrofitting directors into existing ships. At this point it is unclear to me whether jamming in another director is worth losing a couple of 4' or 5" DP guns.
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Post by brygun on Nov 1, 2019 6:59:01 GMT -6
So as bombers get faster, get more HAA? So whats the recommended ratio of HAA to LAA? For myself I plan the HAA first. Well, first after choosing the ship's main weapon system of main guns or a carrier's planes. HAA is many for B+ and CV+ types with exact ones depending on where I am in the research. For smaller ships it will depend on if the ship is meant to be in a fleet or on its own. A lone raider or a trade protection interceptor will often be alone meaning it benefits more from MAA and LAA. For DDs there are two schools of thought as they can carry DP guns later on but DDs are often alone yet also hard for planes to hit. Once the HAA is placed my own technique is typically as many MAA as LAA. Adjustements if needed favor having more MAA to stop the bombs releasing. For DD and KE I usually end up with 4 LAA, 4 MAA and 1 air director. As to what the "ideal" MAA/LAA ratio is I'm not seen enough for a comparison nor run statistical comparison. The MAA is calculated before an attack and the LAA after but MAA takes up more space to have mounted.
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Post by janxol on Nov 1, 2019 11:54:45 GMT -6
As far as I know HAA is the least effective per-tonnage. I use fairly balanced AA suites for most of my ships.
HAA - long range zoning, helps all nearby ships, contributing to collective AA of the fleet. MAA - the most killing power LAA - reduces the chances of getting hit by aircraft which survive HAA and MAA zones, also gets some kills (at least early on)
So basically HAA to get collective AA from nearby ships (that have it), MAA to kill, LAA not to get bombed by survivors. Because there will be survivors, especially if attacked by a hefty air wing. I am getting good results with this design strategy, then again certain ships have a less balanced distribution. DDs for example get HAA for main battery, but dont get much in terms of MAA (though they do get some LAA) the principle here is that protecting other ships is more important, if attacked itself the DD will maneuver to avoid getting hit, helping itself with LAA rather than attempt to outright kill enemy planes.
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Post by griffin01 on Nov 2, 2019 17:53:29 GMT -6
Personally, I'm not entirely sold on HAA. If we get SAM later on, I might stuff a bunch on my ships, but with the limited gun slots on ships and unimpressive performance of HAA I prefer my tertiaries and secondaries single-purpose. MAA have very reasonable killing power and LAA produce a lot of noise for cheap to scare away some planes, and kill some too if they are slow (important note - IIRC LAA CAN attack planes before they drop their payload if they are slow enough). For some HAA I use double-purpose guns on some of my destroyers.
That said, the best loadout would probably be the one that emphasizes MAA with moderately low amount of both LAA and HAA, or one with low amount of MAA and balanced amounts of HAA and LAA.
And, of course, we can't forget about the hyper-efficient self-propelled AA we have in our fighter planes - if only the game was more accommodating towards using carriers as fighter mules...
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 2, 2019 19:01:34 GMT -6
Personally, I'm not entirely sold on HAA. If we get SAM later on, I might stuff a bunch on my ships, but with the limited gun slots on ships and unimpressive performance of HAA I prefer my tertiaries and secondaries single-purpose. MAA have very reasonable killing power and LAA produce a lot of noise for cheap to scare away some planes, and kill some too if they are slow (important note - IIRC LAA CAN attack planes before they drop their payload if they are slow enough). For some HAA I use double-purpose guns on some of my destroyers. That said, the best loadout would probably be the one that emphasizes MAA with moderately low amount of both LAA and HAA, or one with low amount of MAA and balanced amounts of HAA and LAA. And, of course, we can't forget about the hyper-efficient self-propelled AA we have in our fighter planes - if only the game was more accommodating towards using carriers as fighter mules... The main purpose of heavy anti-aircraft guns was to disrupt the enemy formations, this would break them up into smaller components creating some confusion and the BARCAP fighters could attack them and have a much better chance of shredding the formations. The whole AA defense was an onion with the BARCAP, the farthest out, destroyers on barrier patrols, later with radar. There then were inner patrol looking for submarines and torpedo bombers. Each ship had medium and light AA guns part of the onion. So the onion was BARCAP, destroyers, HAA then inner patrols then medium and then light AA guns. With the addition of proximity fuses and air search radar, this onion shaped air defense system became quite formidable. One of terms used to attack this onion shaped defensive structure was SEAD or suppression of enemy air defenses. This onion shape is applicable to sea and land. On land we eventually moved to Nike missiles for point to point air defense of cities but with fighters on standby.
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Post by dizzy on Nov 3, 2019 1:15:44 GMT -6
As far as I know HAA is the least effective per-tonnage. I use fairly balanced AA suites for most of my ships. HAA - long range zoning, helps all nearby ships, contributing to collective AA of the fleet. MAA - the most killing power LAA - reduces the chances of getting hit by aircraft which survive HAA and MAA zones, also gets some kills (at least early on) So why not just DROP the LAA altogether and stick to MAA? What is LAA going to give you late game that you cant get more 'killing power' using MAA? I should probably retitle my OP to Please explain LAA and MAA why to use both when MAA is seems better.
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Post by janxol on Nov 3, 2019 4:01:24 GMT -6
Disruption. LAA seems to much better (at least per tonnage, not sure if they differ per-mount) disruption of accuracy of planes that survive MAA and HAA zones. In my experience its usually impossible to kill all enemy planes before they drop (unless we're talking carriers with decent CAP), so LAA reduces accuracy of attacking planes. MAA also contributes disruption (not sure about HAA), by LAA seems to be much better at it, though perhaps due to the fact that you can fit a lot more LAA mounts for the same tonnage. Late game I might soemtimes go heavier on MAA, but never drop the LAA, because in my expeirence there are always survivors that need to be disrupted.
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Post by stevethecat on Nov 3, 2019 5:03:23 GMT -6
To put HAA on your ships you need a moderate way up the AA research tech tree. You then have to mount the appropriate 3”, 4”, 5” or 6” gun with the DP selected. Tip: only single and dual gun mounts can be DP.
This is a slightly annoying aspect, it makes remaking the Town and Crown colony classes with their triple 6'' DP guns even more difficult, on top of replicating the ships within weight limits being already difficult. Although the feature was later dropped due to the rate of fire of the guns being out stripped by the increased speed of aircraft.
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Post by rimbecano on Nov 3, 2019 8:20:07 GMT -6
Disruption. LAA seems to much better (at least per tonnage, not sure if they differ per-mount) disruption of accuracy of planes that survive MAA and HAA zones. In my experience its usually impossible to kill all enemy planes before they drop (unless we're talking carriers with decent CAP), so LAA reduces accuracy of attacking planes. MAA also contributes disruption (not sure about HAA), by LAA seems to be much better at it, though perhaps due to the fact that you can fit a lot more LAA mounts for the same tonnage. Late game I might soemtimes go heavier on MAA, but never drop the LAA, because in my expeirence there are always survivors that need to be disrupted. Basically, this models the effect of tracer fire on pilot morale. The actual danger may be greater from the tracerless 5" or from 40mm with tracer, but the high ROF 20mm is what provides the volume of tracer fire that makes the pilot perceive just how close things are getting. This makes me wonder if it might have been worth putting fireworks stars in HAA shells, to make the burst size and volume of fragments from HAA visible.
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Post by wlbjork on Nov 3, 2019 9:00:49 GMT -6
Disruption. LAA seems to much better (at least per tonnage, not sure if they differ per-mount) disruption of accuracy of planes that survive MAA and HAA zones. In my experience its usually impossible to kill all enemy planes before they drop (unless we're talking carriers with decent CAP), so LAA reduces accuracy of attacking planes. MAA also contributes disruption (not sure about HAA), by LAA seems to be much better at it, though perhaps due to the fact that you can fit a lot more LAA mounts for the same tonnage. Late game I might soemtimes go heavier on MAA, but never drop the LAA, because in my expeirence there are always survivors that need to be disrupted. Basically, this models the effect of tracer fire on pilot morale. The actual danger may be greater from the tracerless 5" or from 40mm with tracer, but the high ROF 20mm is what provides the volume of tracer fire that makes the pilot perceive just how close things are getting. This makes me wonder if it might have been worth putting fireworks stars in HAA shells, to make the burst size and volume of fragments from HAA visible. Could have been too dangerous. Star shells (presumably a parachute flare) were considered too unsafe to unload in any way other than pulling the trigger.
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