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Post by eaterofsuns on Dec 3, 2019 10:12:50 GMT -6
Honestly, I find DD fights work out fine for me, focusing on gunfire. DD's are very brittle, and getting first hits tends to determine the course of the fight fairly often. Consequently, I tend to over gun the heck out of my early DD's, and I turn gun training on as soon as the game starts, and never look back. I find A,Y with 4", 4x3" secondaries pumps out plenty of firepower early, and depending on when cross-deck shows up end up with 4x4" or 4x5" if I have 1500 ton DD's researched. I have also experimented with a single 5" backed by the 4x3" secondaries on small destroyers, and that seemed to work pretty well. Do take this with a grain of salt, since I tend to stick with nations who have limited areas that they need to defend, and can get away with short range/cramped designs for higher speed and more dakka.
The other major thing that I find helps DD's broadly is being very careful to only use one class of DD at a time. The instant I can build better DD's I consign all my others to trade protection. This avoids the messy fights where the AI sticks your 500ton 27kts legacy DD in the line with your brand new 900ton 32kts hulls. This also has the benefit of giving your TP fleet lots more ASW power, especially if you make room for more depth charges and eventual K-guns when you refit older DD's. This also frees my corvettes to take mine sweeping gear without guilt.
Lastly, since I tend to see DD's as an attrition unit, I build lots of them, and almost always have 4 or more in construction at any point in the game. I will quite happily throw a 4 strong flotilla right into the teeth of the enemy battle line, since even one torpedo hit can doom a BB or a BC that is worth far more then 4 DD's. This also means that I can play DD battles very aggressively, since I tend to have more replacements available than my peer nations.
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Post by brygun on Dec 3, 2019 14:46:43 GMT -6
continuing from @eatorofsuns on DD management
- I make new DD designs very often. In 1942ish Im on DD v015. Each time a major technology comes out or when a war starts. It only takes a month do update the for-war design and any new builds will have the latest/greatest.
-Managing DDs by speed and broad weaponry is indeed an issue. I tend to to deploy the survivors of early versions into "class" squadrons sending say DD v009 to south east asia.
- The way the game generates battles DDs in an area may generate destroyer battles (go figure) where as if you build corvettes KE or strip old DDs of torps into KE they don't generate playable battles. As DD battle are fairly minor (usually) this is a bit of time savings.
- To help with management of minesweeping and sub-hunters I prefer to use KE specific built for that purpose. That generally means giving them only a speed of ~21 knots. Minesweepers built at 600 tons as the smallest size that doesnt get deleted in peace times. 900 tons subhunters are a functional efficiency for ASW scores and the smallest that can take the second pair of K-guns.
- As part of my management I name the dedicated minesweeper classes as MS v### and the sub-hunters SH v###. This is to sort the "In service" tab by "Class". I like to deploy 1-2 MS and 1-2 SH for every sea zone I have colonies in. This also contributes to the foreign service a little so you might use extra tonnage for "colonial service".
- Coincidentally that 2-4 MS/SH will clear almost all # Trade protection ships needed.
- DDs with thier DD v### name will sort differently. I can use them to tweak small issues in foreign service or # trade positions.
(A bit off topic I also make Foreign Service Corvettes FS v### at 1,600 tons with light gear with a few hundreds free for "shipping local cargoes. A handful to a dozen of these help help take off the pressure for needing higher cost density cruisers wandering vs other duties)
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Post by anthropoid on Jan 8, 2020 5:36:53 GMT -6
Apart from being in range, what are the parameters under which the computer is more likely to decide to fire torpedoes? I've played the game probably around 30 hours, many starts and restarts trying different stuff (all as Germany 1900), never going past about 1910. In the course of probably 5 wars, and 30 engagements, pretty sure I have yet to see a single torpedo fired.
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Post by dorn on Jan 8, 2020 6:25:23 GMT -6
Apart from being in range, what are the parameters under which the computer is more likely to decide to fire torpedoes? I've played the game probably around 30 hours, many starts and restarts trying different stuff (all as Germany 1900), never going past about 1910. In the course of probably 5 wars, and 30 engagements, pretty sure I have yet to see a single torpedo fired. Being somewhere around 300 degrees of enemy ship. Having more torpedo tubes. Night battle.
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Post by wlbjork on Jan 8, 2020 6:50:33 GMT -6
continuing from @eatorofsuns on DD management - I make new DD designs very often. In 1942ish Im on DD v015. Each time a major technology comes out or when a war starts. It only takes a month do update the for-war design and any new builds will have the latest/greatest. -Managing DDs by speed and broad weaponry is indeed an issue. I tend to to deploy the survivors of early versions into "class" squadrons sending say DD v009 to south east asia. - The way the game generates battles DDs in an area may generate destroyer battles (go figure) where as if you build corvettes KE or strip old DDs of torps into KE they don't generate playable battles. As DD battle are fairly minor (usually) this is a bit of time savings. - To help with management of minesweeping and sub-hunters I prefer to use KE specific built for that purpose. That generally means giving them only a speed of ~21 knots. Minesweepers built at 600 tons as the smallest size that doesnt get deleted in peace times. 900 tons subhunters are a functional efficiency for ASW scores and the smallest that can take the second pair of K-guns. - As part of my management I name the dedicated minesweeper classes as MS v### and the sub-hunters SH v###. This is to sort the "In service" tab by "Class". I like to deploy 1-2 MS and 1-2 SH for every sea zone I have colonies in. This also contributes to the foreign service a little so you might use extra tonnage for "colonial service". - Coincidentally that 2-4 MS/SH will clear almost all # Trade protection ships needed. - DDs with thier DD v### name will sort differently. I can use them to tweak small issues in foreign service or # trade positions. (A bit off topic I also make Foreign Service Corvettes FS v### at 1,600 tons with light gear with a few hundreds free for "shipping local cargoes. A handful to a dozen of these help help take off the pressure for needing higher cost density cruisers wandering vs other duties) Since this post was written, it has been established that the minesweeping value (seen in the Area Overview tab) is related to the tonnage of the vessel. See brygun's post in the Tactics board for more information. It has also been stated that vessels on Trade Protection duty are not protecting the fleet so additional MS vessels will reduce the chance of damage or loss by mines.
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Post by brygun on Jan 8, 2020 10:21:56 GMT -6
Since this post was written, it has been established that the minesweeping value (seen in the Area Overview tab) is related to the tonnage of the vessel. See brygun's post in the Tactics board for more information. It has also been stated that vessels on Trade Protection duty are not protecting the fleet so additional MS vessels will reduce the chance of damage or loss by mines. Where the Minesweeper is left on active fleet (AF). If you put it on Trade Protection its no longer part of the escort/guard ship calculation.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Jan 8, 2020 11:43:12 GMT -6
Apart from being in range, what are the parameters under which the computer is more likely to decide to fire torpedoes? I've played the game probably around 30 hours, many starts and restarts trying different stuff (all as Germany 1900), never going past about 1910. In the course of probably 5 wars, and 30 engagements, pretty sure I have yet to see a single torpedo fired. The best way to get a feeling for when destroyers will fire torpedoes is to play a few games or fleet exercises at the Captain level of difficulty. At that level you are able to manually set up torpedo attacks. When you try to order a torpedo attack, the game will tell you why the destroyer cannot fire its torpedoes. It is is quite educational to see the many reasons why a destroyer will refuse to fire its torpedoes when to the player's eye a torpedo attack looks completely reasonable. Even when the game allows you to fire your torpedoes it is quite surprising how difficult it is to actually hit something even late in the game. It is also very interesting to see the actual angle that the torpedo needs to be fired at to have a chance to hit. Sometimes these angle as so extreme that it is obvious why the game indicates that friendly ships would be in danger from the attack. (Personally I think we should still be able to fire torpedoes even when our own ships are at risk.) Here's an example. In the image below it is 1952, there are 51 torpedoes in the water, most launched from a distance of less than 4,000 yds. Each set of torpedoes was fired manually after the game said that the solution was good and that the torpedoes had a good chance of hitting. None hit.
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Post by avimimus on Jan 8, 2020 13:29:23 GMT -6
Interestingly, my experience has been quite different.
I started out mainly using destroyers as large (300-500t) torpedo boats to counter enemy capital ships in the Adriatic and the Baltic... this often had a single gun... so I'd produce a few specialist escort gunboats in the 500-700t range.
However, such small destroyers tend to be quite vulnerable to gunfire... so I've tended (in later games with more oceanic powers) to favour 700-1100t destroyers with big guns (5" or even 6") to get a range advantage on other destroyers and a limited ability to assist in combat against light cruisers. In contrast, my light cruisers with their marginally greater vulnerability to torpedoes tend to be equipped with large numbers of 3"-4" guns.
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Post by brygun on Jan 8, 2020 14:05:38 GMT -6
Interesting talk.
I didnt think of keeping on very small destroyers 600t later on.
After alot of games for torpedo attacks Ive come to build even late game 1100 to 1600 DDs to carry 8 - 10 torpedos. That is enough torps to drop a good spread or two. Its enough health that a 3-4 driving in will likely only lose 1 and that means 2-3 launching.
Ive stopped using 2000+ DDs as those tend toward 15 torps maybe with reloads but that cost to build a launcher is about the same, except for the reloads. The reloads I dont find that useful as by the time its used the first volley the ship is badly damaged.
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Post by anthropoid on Jan 8, 2020 14:37:24 GMT -6
Hmm, I have been playing on Captain Mode, but didn't notice how to set up a torpedo attack. I'll look a bit more in the documents and in game.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Jan 8, 2020 16:57:52 GMT -6
Hmm, I have been playing on Captain Mode, but didn't notice how to set up a torpedo attack. I'll look a bit more in the documents and in game. In Captain mode to manually fire torpedoes: Open the division screen Highlight one of the ships in the division Select "Fire torpedoes" - a list of potential torpedo targets will appear Select one of the targets - The game will let you know if you can fire torpedoes and the odds of success, or it will tell you why you cannot fire, or it will not show any targets if there are none. You have to do this separately for each ship in the division. The game will also still make its own decisions about when to fire torpedoes and may occasionally preempt your ability to fire by taking a shot of its own. That's OK, it's better at it than I have ever been.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 8, 2020 17:12:05 GMT -6
Apart from being in range, what are the parameters under which the computer is more likely to decide to fire torpedoes? I've played the game probably around 30 hours, many starts and restarts trying different stuff (all as Germany 1900), never going past about 1910. In the course of probably 5 wars, and 30 engagements, pretty sure I have yet to see a single torpedo fired. The best way to get a feeling for when destroyers will fire torpedoes is to play a few games or fleet exercises at the Captain level of difficulty. At that level you are able to manually set up torpedo attacks. When you try to order a torpedo attack, the game will tell you why the destroyer cannot fire its torpedoes. It is is quite educational to see the many reasons why a destroyer will refuse to fire its torpedoes when to the player's eye a torpedo attack looks completely reasonable. Even when the game allows you to fire your torpedoes it is quite surprising how difficult it is to actually hit something even late in the game. It is also very interesting to see the actual angle that the torpedo needs to be fired at to have a chance to hit. Sometimes these angle as so extreme that it is obvious why the game indicates that friendly ships would be in danger from the attack. (Personally I think we should still be able to fire torpedoes even when our own ships are at risk.) Here's an example. In the image below it is 1952, there are 51 torpedoes in the water, most launched from a distance of less than 4,000 yds. Each set of torpedoes was fired manually after the game said that the solution was good and that the torpedoes had a good chance of hitting. None hit. This post was so depressing. ( ) I would have just left my bridge and gone to my cabin and started drinking if my DDs had been 0-51 in this situation.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Jan 8, 2020 18:03:07 GMT -6
This post was so depressing. ( ) I would have just left my bridge and gone to my cabin and started drinking if my DDs had been 0-51 in this situation. It's payback for the hubris of Captain's Mode. As if one actually knows what to do with every ship on the map ...
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Post by rodentnavy on Jan 8, 2020 18:09:41 GMT -6
The best way to get a feeling for when destroyers will fire torpedoes is to play a few games or fleet exercises at the Captain level of difficulty. At that level you are able to manually set up torpedo attacks. When you try to order a torpedo attack, the game will tell you why the destroyer cannot fire its torpedoes. It is is quite educational to see the many reasons why a destroyer will refuse to fire its torpedoes when to the player's eye a torpedo attack looks completely reasonable. Even when the game allows you to fire your torpedoes it is quite surprising how difficult it is to actually hit something even late in the game. It is also very interesting to see the actual angle that the torpedo needs to be fired at to have a chance to hit. Sometimes these angle as so extreme that it is obvious why the game indicates that friendly ships would be in danger from the attack. (Personally I think we should still be able to fire torpedoes even when our own ships are at risk.) Here's an example. In the image below it is 1952, there are 51 torpedoes in the water, most launched from a distance of less than 4,000 yds. Each set of torpedoes was fired manually after the game said that the solution was good and that the torpedoes had a good chance of hitting. None hit. This post was so depressing. ( ) I would have just left my bridge and gone to my cabin and started drinking if my DDs had been 0-51 in this situation. Hey that is nothing, I have had a destroyer torpedo a friendly battleship in a fast turning knife fight somewhat forgivable (and thank the great shipwright for my obsession with TDS), a destroyer torpedo itself (no seriously launched on slow for range, then accelerated to its own top speed and then turned across its own torpedo's path) rather less forgivable, however the true cake was taken by the light cruiser that torpedoed the battlecruiser it was escorting with a torp from tubes on the opposite beam to the enemy contact! There is always plenty with torpedoes to bring woe and hard drinking.
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Post by fredsanford on Jan 8, 2020 18:19:08 GMT -6
Apart from being in range, what are the parameters under which the computer is more likely to decide to fire torpedoes? I've played the game probably around 30 hours, many starts and restarts trying different stuff (all as Germany 1900), never going past about 1910. In the course of probably 5 wars, and 30 engagements, pretty sure I have yet to see a single torpedo fired. You still haven't seen effective torpedoes yet. Until around the mid 1910s, DDs will be very reluctant to approach enemy ships unless night or the target is already crippled. You can micro them in Captain mode to get close enough to fire manually, but remember that just because a target is inside the range ring doesn't mean a torp solution exists. Its a relative motion problem when the torpedo isn't much if any faster than its intended target. Check your research tab to see your current torpedo stats.
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