tc27
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by tc27 on Dec 3, 2019 3:27:29 GMT -6
I am rather bruised after loosing two of my CV's to enemy submarines in the 'game events' between turns.
Context: I am playing as Spain and my rival Italy has dozens of BB/BCs so I bet heavily on air-power and destroyers/submarines in a late 1930's war - however I lost two of my four fleet CV's to enemy submarines which has made an already difficult situation even worse (and despite having many more/better submarines myself I have not sunk any enemy ships with them).
I realise capital ships were sunk by submarines during the war so I am living with it but I was wondering what steps can be taken to mitigate it and how the game calculates these events?
I have plenty of DD with maximum ASW rating that technology allows (ASW 7 at the current time) and am more than meeting the TP requirements.
I assume the same admiral who is taking my battleships out on coastal raids (single ship division under AI control in an area swarming with destroyers and aircraft) is sending my CVs on pointless ASW patrols without destroyer escorts?
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Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 4, 2019 3:41:03 GMT -6
personally if i lose a newer capital ship to subs i generally redo the turn - i prefer to lose my important ships due to my own incompetence, not a random event
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Post by orkel on Dec 4, 2019 6:36:01 GMT -6
Sub events are major bullshit, so I usually savescum/reload the game if I lose a new expensive ship to a pure RNG event. Just manually save each turn.
Checkbox option to disable subs when
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Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 4, 2019 12:30:11 GMT -6
Checkbox option to disable subs when it could be toned down by having the option of subs only damaging capital ships - one of my ships being out of action for 6 months is better than losing the ship
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Post by dorn on Dec 4, 2019 12:40:55 GMT -6
Checkbox option to disable subs when it could be toned down by having the option of subs only damaging capital ships - one of my ships being out of action for 6 months is better than losing the ship May be some limits of submarine technology to TDS level of that ship. If TDS is better no ship is sunk otherwise ship can be sink.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 4, 2019 15:15:58 GMT -6
There are several things affecting this event. The number of destroyers in the fleet compared to capital ships affects the chance of it happening at all. Ship type and TDS is used for determining the chance of sinking.
Though I can understand that it is frustrating to lose an important ship to a random event, it is very historical. Without making a count, I have a feeling that submarines caused the loss of more carriers and battleships than any other cause. I am sure the Japanese navy staff felt rather miffed when the brand new Shinano was sunk by a submarine for example.
I could of course put in an option to have capital ships only damaged by submarines, but that would feel a bit artificial. I will think about it and read further comments and suggestions in this thread.
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Post by broadsides on Dec 4, 2019 15:29:04 GMT -6
Historically (disregarding scuttling actions, just the prime cause that started the reason for being sunk)in WW2 Japan lost 9 CV to subs, 11 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. UK lost 5 CV to subs, 1 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. The US lost 4 CV to subs, 8 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets.
It sucks to lose a huge powerful and expensive capital ship to a tiny cheap sardine can of unwashed sailors but that is why subs have stayed around. If given the chance it should be expected they will go after the bigger ships. I believe the sub effects are well balanced.
WH AIDE: "President Roosevelt, Japan has just sunk the Pacific fleet battleships!" Roosevelt: "Quick, reload the last save!"
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 4, 2019 16:03:55 GMT -6
Historically (disregarding scuttling actions, just the prime cause that started the reason for being sunk)in WW2 Japan lost 9 CV to subs, 11 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. UK lost 5 CV to subs, 1 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. The US lost 4 CV to subs, 8 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. ..... While the numbers are certainly accurate, we should look at what kind of carriers were lost and where. Of the Japanese carriers sunk, nine were either light or escort carriers. These were carriers built on ocean liner and other civilian hulls, not as warships with bulges. They were very vulnerable to torpedoes. For the British, Courageous was lost when two of her escorts went to help a merchant ship leaving without an adequate number of guards, the other were sunk in the Mediterranean Sea a shallow enclosed sea and this makes a difference. To adequately assess why the capital ships were lost in the game, we need to understand the construction and circumstances of the losses.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 4, 2019 18:30:02 GMT -6
Historically (disregarding scuttling actions, just the prime cause that started the reason for being sunk)in WW2 Japan lost 9 CV to subs, 11 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. UK lost 5 CV to subs, 1 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. The US lost 4 CV to subs, 8 to A/C and 1 to surface fleets. ..... While the numbers are certainly accurate, we should look at what kind of carriers were lost and where. Of the Japanese carriers sunk, nine were either light or escort carriers. These were carriers built on ocean liner and other civilian hulls, not as warships with bulges. They were very vulnerable to torpedoes. For the British, Courageous was lost when two of her escorts went to help a merchant ship leaving without an adequate number of guards, the other were sunk in the Mediterranean Sea a shallow enclosed sea and this makes a difference. To adequately assess why the capital ships were lost in the game, we need to understand the construction and circumstances of the losses. That's fair. Shinano wasn't finished fitting out and so didn't have it's full capacity to survive underwater hits, Wasp was built with less subdivision and torpedo protection depth so that it could be squeezed into the last bit of available tonnage within the naval limitation treaties. Yorktown I wouldn't count at all for a between turn event because the ship had been crippled by aircraft during battle (i.e. an in-game scenario) and would be more of an example of an end-of-scenario event which occasionally happens. I doubt you could realistically program for the sinking of Shinano. How many ships traveled open, hostile waters to another port to finish fitting out? Wasp is already accounted for since Fredrik stated that TPS is a factor in the event; Wasp would simply be a fleet carrier with a 0 or 1 for a TPS. I wouldn't think that the sinkings in the Med (e.g. Ark Royal) would be disqualified for any reason. Yes, the Med isn't the Pacific but it isn't Lake Michigan either. For the depths that WW2 subs operated at it's plenty open enough. Of course, Taiho and Shokaku are the prime examples of the event. Full sized fleet carriers in the middle of a battlefleet steaming into a fight. One thing to maybe consider for the frequency of the event is the size of in-game fleets compared to historical fleets. If the player fleets are smaller than historical fleets then every loss hurts more and has a magnified severity. So it's possible the chance of occurrence might have to be reduced but I don't have enough data to form an opinion on that. I definitely think it should be part of the game though.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 4, 2019 19:02:14 GMT -6
While the numbers are certainly accurate, we should look at what kind of carriers were lost and where. Of the Japanese carriers sunk, nine were either light or escort carriers. These were carriers built on ocean liner and other civilian hulls, not as warships with bulges. They were very vulnerable to torpedoes. For the British, Courageous was lost when two of her escorts went to help a merchant ship leaving without an adequate number of guards, the other were sunk in the Mediterranean Sea a shallow enclosed sea and this makes a difference. To adequately assess why the capital ships were lost in the game, we need to understand the construction and circumstances of the losses. That's fair. Shinano wasn't finished fitting out and so didn't have it's full capacity to survive underwater hits, Wasp was built with less subdivision and torpedo protection depth so that it could be squeezed into the last bit of available tonnage within the naval limitation treaties. Yorktown I wouldn't count at all for a between turn event because the ship had been crippled by aircraft during battle (i.e. an in-game scenario) and would be more of an example of an end-of-scenario event which occasionally happens. I doubt you could realistically program for the sinking of Shinano. How many ships traveled open, hostile waters to another port to finish fitting out? Wasp is already accounted for since Fredrik stated that TPS is a factor in the event; Wasp would simply be a fleet carrier with a 0 or 1 for a TPS. I wouldn't think that the sinkings in the Med (e.g. Ark Royal) would be disqualified for any reason. Yes, the Med isn't the Pacific but it isn't Lake Michigan either. For the depths that WW2 subs operated at it's plenty open enough. Of course, Taiho and Shokaku are the prime examples of the event. Full sized fleet carriers in the middle of a battlefleet steaming into a fight. One thing to maybe consider for the frequency of the event is the size of in-game fleets compared to historical fleets. If the player fleets are smaller than historical fleets then every loss hurts more and has a magnified severity. So it's possible the chance of occurrence might have to be reduced but I don't have enough data to form an opinion on that. I definitely think it should be part of the game though. Here is what happened to sink Taiho - The torpedoes damaged her, but poor damage control is what sank her. Quote above is from Nihon Kaigun website. The same types of explosions occurred on Shokaku however, she was hit by three torpedoes. The Mediterranean is a narrow enclosed sea, it is an easy place to find and shoot torpedoes at warships. We have to examine where the ships were sunk as depth of water and narrowness of the sea is important. Submarines can sit in the Straits of Sicily and the passage between Sardinia and the Tunis area. Both are about 100-115 miles across. The submarines with aircraft support can wait within those narrow waters. The Straits of Sicily are about 251 feet deep in most spots including the center. There are three shoal areas and a bank, which allows the submarine to hide and evade detection by sonar. HMS Ark Royal was sunk SE of Gibraltar, this area is also very narrow between Mallorca, Ibiza and the Algerian coast. This area is much deeper. She was sunk 30 miles from Gibraltar, again in a shallow passage. The Mediterranean Sea was a dangerous place to sail through during the war, even for U-boats. I believe fifteen U-boats were lost in that sea. You can't count narrow and enclosed sea out of the discussion. The lead post states that the war was between Spain and Italy. Now, this means that most likely the combat was in the Mediterranean Sea between Corsica, Sardinia and the Spanish Coastline and possibly area around Sicily and the coast of North Africa. This is exactly where Ark Royal, Barham and other ships were sunk, by submarines and land based aircraft. So, change tactics and understand where you are playing. Why does Spain need to risk her carriers and the same goes for Italy. With bases on Corsica and Sardinia, she really does have a need to risk her carriers anywhere unless the combat was out in the Atlantic. Right now I have no idea.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 4, 2019 19:36:37 GMT -6
True but there is only so far into the details of an event you can simulate in a game. Fredrik doesn't mention it specifically so I don't know if the damage control tech level or crew quality effects the event but I'm not sure it needs to. It would be great if they did but overall, the submarine torpedoing event is a pretty minor feature in the game and it might become a question of just how much time the primary programmer has to tweak and add details to that feature. Of course, that is up to Fredrik's judgement.
I'll defer to you on the Mediterranean. It's not really in my wheelhouse.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 4, 2019 23:11:03 GMT -6
True but there is only so far into the details of an event you can simulate in a game. Fredrik doesn't mention it specifically so I don't know if the damage control tech level or crew quality effects the event but I'm not sure it needs to. It would be great if they did but overall, the submarine torpedoing event is a pretty minor feature in the game and it might become a question of just how much time the primary programmer has to tweak and add details to that feature. Of course, that is up to Fredrik's judgement. I'll defer to you on the Mediterranean. It's not really in my wheelhouse. You are correct and this is why it's hard to determine whether its game play by the player or the game design. Unless we can have submarines and land-based air in the fleet exercises we cannot explore and find out solutions to the issues at hand. This is a game, not realistic history. So, what happened in history is not entirely relevant. I don't have the answer, I can only present actual historical answers, but most of the time they are no applicable.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Dec 4, 2019 23:58:18 GMT -6
Simply as a measure of success (and not braggadocio), I have not experienced the Sub Sinks Ship event and had it apply to anything larger than a CL in ... well, I bet it happens in less than 1% of my games. I believe it boils down to sheer numbers. I strive for at least a 1.5x TP level and preferably 2x and above, and want the same proportion of Active Fleet escorts for the active fleet to my capital ships.
In games where I eek through to the end with 20 prestige I finish with 35-50 DDs, and in games where I am very successful with a very large fleet I can have 100-125 or more. If you never scrap DDs, just shift them from fleet service to trade protection, it is not a great burden to achieve.
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Post by dorn on Dec 5, 2019 0:08:28 GMT -6
As Fredrik stated calculation is based on the 2 most important facts: - level of antitorpedo protection - capital ships cover by screens
I would add one think which could be useful and made me worried about the issue that almost nobody equips fleet destroyers with additional equipment. Adding ASW quality of fleet destroyers to this event calculation could help and give sence to equip fleet destroyers for ASW a little more.
Another option could be coefficient for areas. Either globally or per nation. Examples: During war between UK and USA probability of submarine attack of UK submarine would be highest in Atlantic, in Pacific will be minimal.
EDIT: Number of CV and CVL should have effect to evade being torpedoed by submarine too. And it should increase through the time.
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Post by noshurviverse on Dec 5, 2019 0:55:29 GMT -6
I had a game as Spain recently where soon after commissioning my third dreadnought in the mid 1920's while at war with France, it was sunken in a submarine event. Now, usually I roll with the punches pretty well, but losing more than a third of my battle line to RNG was a bit more than I could stomach. So I shamelessly rerolled the save and redid the turn...only to have my 2nd dreadnought be lost to presumably the same sub. And so again I reloaded...and they got one of my CVLs.
At that point I decided the game would not be satisfied without a sacrifice and accepted the result.
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