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Post by Kaiser Hans on Dec 21, 2019 9:08:55 GMT -6
Is there anyway for you to remove the underdeveloped naval industry? Or is it something you are stuck with for the whole game, even tho by 1907 you have built most of your ship from your own dockyard and have a dock size of 24,000 tons.
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Post by rodentnavy on Dec 21, 2019 9:28:36 GMT -6
Japan I know eventually shakes this off, Russia I think is stuck with it.
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Post by Kaiser Hans on Dec 21, 2019 9:35:01 GMT -6
Japan I know eventually shakes this off, Russia I think is stuck with it. Nice, good too know. Is it some sort of event? or does it just disappears? I wanna try playing a game that is not Germany but I really don't like underdeveloped naval industry.
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Post by rodentnavy on Dec 21, 2019 9:39:14 GMT -6
Japan I know eventually shakes this off, Russia I think is stuck with it. Nice, good too know. Is it some sort of event? or does it just disappears? I wanna try playing a game that is not Germany but I really don't like underdeveloped naval industry. You get an announcement, I think in the main messages box, saying something like Japan's ship building industry is now as good as the rest of the world.
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Post by cabusha on Dec 21, 2019 14:46:21 GMT -6
I dunno how much tonnage it takes, but Japan definitely shakes it off. I'm play RU right now, and as of 1930 still have it.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 21, 2019 15:10:54 GMT -6
Well, my strategy for underdeveloped nations like Japan, Italy etc. is to adopt a different naval strategy that is affordable. The strategy is guerre de course or trade warfare. Many nations without adequate industrial capacity and funding have used this strategy. I use it with Japan all the time and I have never lost a war. Use your research and advance torpedoes and submarines as fast as possible and build lots of the submarines. Take your older surface vessels, upgrade them, mothball them or reserve them, then when the war starts, mobilize them, assign them as raiders. Works for me everytime. Playing Japan, I've beaten Russia, Germany, Great Britain and France. Somehow I've never gotten into a war with the US but who knows. It will work for Italy and Germany along with Russia.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 22, 2019 0:50:15 GMT -6
It eventually disappears, unless the nation has poor education level. So Japan will shake it, but Russia/Soviet Union not.
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Post by iasach on Dec 22, 2019 5:10:35 GMT -6
That's a strange model. If a nation is building many large warships every other year for decades, can you say its shipbuilding remains equally as undeveloped as it was? Moreover, the poor education level should also be vanish with time, as far as social reforms allow, and much more rapidly if a communist revolution commenced.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 22, 2019 9:45:55 GMT -6
It might not be historically or even socially correct. The mechanism is used to keep Soviet shipbuilding slow. Soviet shipbuilding was not very good in the 30s, the Kirov class for example required import of foreign expertise and too very long times to build. Even the Sverdlov class had longish build times compared to other nations.
I have found no evidence that a communist revolution would improve shipbuilding or construction times of warships. When it comes to other heavy industry, or tank production, certainly a communist state might have efficiencies, but not warship construction.
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Post by noshurviverse on Dec 22, 2019 15:54:30 GMT -6
It might not be historically or even socially correct. The mechanism is used to keep Soviet shipbuilding slow. Soviet shipbuilding was not very good in the 30s, the Kirov class for example required import of foreign expertise and too very long times to build. Even the Sverdlov class had longish build times compared to other nations. I have found no evidence that a communist revolution would improve shipbuilding or construction times of warships. When it comes to other heavy industry, or tank production, certainly a communist state might have efficiencies, but not warship construction. I think this could be seen as a scenario that shows one of the oddities of RtW, which is it's straddling of the "sim vs. game" line. I'll agree that Russian shipbuilding was rather subpar even into the Soviet era, but what if Russia had been an expansionistic power that had waged several successful wars against it's neighbors by then? Do we assume internally Russia remains rather the same, or do we go full alt-history? This is obviously something for debate, but it might be interesting if choosing the "social reform" choices had a small chance of removing poor education or even granting a positive trait. That would make those events more interesting, because as of now I don't think I've ever agreed to them except in the case of teetering on the brink of revolution.
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Post by iasach on Dec 23, 2019 3:05:22 GMT -6
I have found no evidence that a communist revolution would improve shipbuilding or construction times of warships. When it comes to other heavy industry, or tank production, certainly a communist state might have efficiencies, but not warship construction. I was not explicitly referencing the warship construction penalty in communist nations, but the poor education malus. Historically, literacy levels and education quality rose tremendously following the conclusion of Russian Civil War. I am arguing that there should be a way to remove this penalty: either by 1.) Thoroughly investing into broad 'social reforms' over the years when it is possible, giving a chance to eventually remove the penalty after about a decade passes, with increased chance as time goes by. 2.) After a revolution, by reallocating large parts of the budget into those same 'social reforms', except in a far more harsh but reliable manner, which would remove the penalty in half a decade or so. Then, when the education penalty is removed, the 'count' to developed shipbuilding industry status can begin. I do not know how it goes for Japan, but I guess it is tied to the amount and size of warships built in native shipyard, and I don't think this exact method is not appliable to Russia. I understand it goes out of the game's focus, but there must be some kind of interactivity with issues affecting the actual naval affairs from afar. It doesn't have to complex, but it has to be.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 23, 2019 4:47:41 GMT -6
It might not be historically or even socially correct. The mechanism is used to keep Soviet shipbuilding slow. Soviet shipbuilding was not very good in the 30s, the Kirov class for example required import of foreign expertise and too very long times to build. Even the Sverdlov class had longish build times compared to other nations. I have found no evidence that a communist revolution would improve shipbuilding or construction times of warships. When it comes to other heavy industry, or tank production, certainly a communist state might have efficiencies, but not warship construction. I think this could be seen as a scenario that shows one of the oddities of RtW, which is it's straddling of the "sim vs. game" line. I'll agree that Russian shipbuilding was rather subpar even into the Soviet era, but what if Russia had been an expansionistic power that had waged several successful wars against it's neighbors by then? Do we assume internally Russia remains rather the same, or do we go full alt-history? This is obviously something for debate, but it might be interesting if choosing the "social reform" choices had a small chance of removing poor education or even granting a positive trait. That would make those events more interesting, because as of now I don't think I've ever agreed to them except in the case of teetering on the brink of revolution. If all nations ended up the same from say 1940, the challenge and difference of playing nations with different advantages or disadvantages would disappear.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 23, 2019 4:56:53 GMT -6
I have found no evidence that a communist revolution would improve shipbuilding or construction times of warships. When it comes to other heavy industry, or tank production, certainly a communist state might have efficiencies, but not warship construction. I was not explicitly referencing the warship construction penalty in communist nations, but the poor education malus. Historically, literacy levels and education quality rose tremendously following the conclusion of Russian Civil War. I am arguing that there should be a way to remove this penalty: either by 1.) Thoroughly investing into broad 'social reforms' over the years when it is possible, giving a chance to eventually remove the penalty after about a decade passes, with increased chance as time goes by. 2.) After a revolution, by reallocating large parts of the budget into those same 'social reforms', except in a far more harsh but reliable manner, which would remove the penalty in half a decade or so. Then, when the education penalty is removed, the 'count' to developed shipbuilding industry status can begin. I do not know how it goes for Japan, but I guess it is tied to the amount and size of warships built in native shipyard, and I don't think this exact method is not appliable to Russia. I understand it goes out of the game's focus, but there must be some kind of interactivity with issues affecting the actual naval affairs from afar. It doesn't have to complex, but it has to be.
I do agree that the education level of Russia rose considerably under the communists compared to the Tsars. However, realistic in itself or not, the poor education trait is also used in the game to keep down the quality of both pilots and ship crews. Without going into a debate of the merits or dismerits of the armed forces in various nations, this keeps Russian and Italian crew and pilot quality down. Historically, these nations did not manage to have the same competence level in their navies or air forces as other nations.
Myself, I enjoy the challenge of playing a nation with some disadvantages, but if players disagree with the ratings, it is easy enough to mod the trait by just changing poor education level to False in the game files.
See also my answer to noshurviverse.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 23, 2019 13:53:11 GMT -6
I don't think we can make this game go down all the "paths not taken". I support the efforts by the team to keep the game within the bounds of fun and interesting play.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 23, 2019 14:32:59 GMT -6
Japan I know eventually shakes this off, Russia I think is stuck with it. Nice, good too know. Is it some sort of event? or does it just disappears? I wanna try playing a game that is not Germany but I really don't like underdeveloped naval industry. from what i understand the cost of building any ship is the same for all countries, therefore all underdeveloped shipbuilding industry does is spread out that same cost over a longer period of time - not as bad as it seems
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