[1.14] Torpedo bombers standing down [Fixed in 1.15]

[brygun]

Had several battles start with nightime coming.  During the thin daylight prepped torpedo planes in hopes of launching. No scouts found an enemy. Stood down the torpedo bombers. The ship inventory for torpedoes remains reduced from readying the planes.

I believe this also occurs if the torp bombers fly out, fail to find a target and return to the carrier.

In both cases their should be a torpedo returned to inventory.

Im not sure if the game's internal data is tracking each planes loading status.

Technically could be happening with bombs but we dont track ship board inventory for them (usually plentiful enough not to matter for our 1 day battles).

[oldpop2000]

Jan 5, 2020 10:00:18 GMT -6 brygun said:

Had several battles start with nightime coming.  During the thin daylight prepped torpedo planes in hopes of launching. No scouts found an enemy. Stood down the torpedo bombers. The ship inventory for torpedoes remains reduced from readying the planes.

I believe this also occurs if the torp bombers fly out, fail to find a target and return to the carrier.

In both cases their should be a torpedo returned to inventory.

Im not sure if the game's internal data is tracking each planes loading status.

Technically could be happening with bombs but we dont track ship board inventory for them (usually plentiful enough not to matter for our 1 day battles).

I cannot speak for the game, but in real history, you cannot land with a torpedo or bombs on board a carrier based aircraft. They have to be dumped prior to landing. The team may have that fact in the game that would explain the loss of the ordnance. Generally, once the torpedoes on loaded on the bird, they stay on the plane unless the mission is changed and the ordnance requirements change. Its a lot of work to remove torpedoes so generally you try to keep them on. Even in an attack, you will try to launch the bombers quickly and removed the threat. Just my take.

[wlbjork]

To expand on oldpop2000's comment, it is dangerous to attempt to land with ordnance on board - generally the ordnance is armed after take off, giving an unacceptably high chance of the weapons exploding when landing. In addition, aircraft have a maximum landing weight which is significantly lower than the maximum take off weight, in which case dumping ordnance will bring meet the target in a shorter time period than merely dumping fuel.

[oldpop2000]

Jan 5, 2020 13:37:56 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

To expand on oldpop2000's comment, it is dangerous to attempt to land with ordnance on board - generally the ordnance is armed after take off, giving an unacceptably high chance of the weapons exploding when landing. In addition, aircraft have a maximum landing weight which is significantly lower than the maximum take off weight, in which case dumping ordnance will bring meet the target in a shorter time period than merely dumping fuel.

I appreciate your adding that information. Here is some actual data for the TBF.

Total weight for a TBF with the torpedo installation is 15002 lbs. under normal conditions. Overload is 15,644 lbs.


Maximum arrested landing under average conditions is 14,800 lbs. These are absolute limitations.


It's pretty close and the pilot would really want some slack in his landing, so the torpedo has to go. You cannot take a chance landing a plane on a crowded deck with an armed torpedo in case the landing goes awry.

Now, with the SBD-6, unless you are carrying a 1600 lbs. bomb, you could dump fuel and land with your bombs aboard but would you really want to do that. What if there was an emergency on the deck from a previous plane and you have to go around and wait, you might need swim fins very quickly. For the earlier two versions of the SBD, the -3 and -5, this was not possible as these two planes could not carry anything over 1000 lbs. On scouting missions they would normally carry a 500 lbs. bomb and could land under the right conditions. 

[brygun]

Interesting and might be working as intended for launched and returning planes.

Note: the decrease in fuel weight from flying might bring the plane to within tolerance for landing with the weight of the weapon.

Note 2: On the weapons being armed in flight. Query on whether this is a pilot selected or happens automatically. I believe it is pilot selected. In the case of never finding a target the ordnance would never have been armed.

The original case presented though was planes readied on deck but never took off due to lack of a target. In that case there certainly would be the means to return the ordnance to the ship's hold. However this is an uncommon situation in the game.

A bit less relevant when this is due to night starting that the planes wont rearm for a take off for hours which may clock out the scenario.

Still, for never launched planes the ordnance definitely should be returned.

[oldpop2000]

Jan 5, 2020 16:30:14 GMT -6 brygun said:

Interesting and might be working as intended for launched and returning planes.

Note: the decrease in fuel weight from flying might bring the plane to within tolerance for landing with the weight of the weapon.

Note 2: On the weapons being armed in flight. Query on whether this is a pilot selected or happens automatically. I believe it is pilot selected. In the case of never finding a target the ordnance would never have been armed.

The original case presented though was planes readied on deck but never took off due to lack of a target. In that case there certainly would be the means to return the ordnance to the ship's hold. However this is an uncommon situation in the game.

A bit less relevant when this is due to night starting that the planes wont rearm for a take off for hours which may clock out the scenario.

Still, for never launched planes the ordnance definitely should be returned.

A lot of this discussion also rests on whether you are using a deck park. In a deck park, the torpedo bombers are last in line, followed by dive bombers and then the fighters are first. If the action planned for the day is just combat air patrols, then the launch will be four to six fighters with maybe four or more ready to relieve or augment. Now, if an enemy target is detected, then the bombers will be loaded as per mission requirements. If the mission is scrubbed, then the planes will not be unloaded. 

As to fuel expended during the mission, SOP is to retain 10% of fuel to allow for problems in recovery and trouble finding the carrier. So if the aircraft is carrying about 335 gallons of fuel, it will try to retain 30-35 gallons of fuel. A typical example is the Wright Cyclone which consumed about .43 lbs. of fuel per horsepower per hour. Typical horsepower is 1000 HP. You will be at full power on take-off and then climb out to cruising altitude. Pilots will throttle back just after take-off to about 50 percent of engine power using their manifold pressure gauge, wheels up, flaps up, to reduce fuel consumption. After reaching the cruising altitude then you can throttle back even more just to barely keep you in the air. So the fuel consumption will be much less. Conserving fuel really takes a lot of practice. On your return, you hope they can recover you as quickly as possible so you won't have to go swimming. Sometimes it doesn't work. Anyway, the game cannot possibly put all of this human action with mistakes and such, into its gaming procedures. 

[jeb94]

For aircraft that launch I can understand the jettisoning of payloads in order to get the aircraft back on deck but if the aircraft were never launched and unreadied what happens in game to those torpedoes?  Are additional torpedoes then removed from inventory the next time a strike is readied?  If that is the case then its a problem.

[brygun]

Related though not ideal video

A modern flight at an air show with a Swordfish landing on a grass field with a torpedo*. * : cant say for sure if thats a full weight torpedo or an empty shell.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUS5Ho5Msyc&t=422s

This was from a brief search to see if there was evidence of landing with ordnance. This example is under "ideal" conditions with no arrester wires, deck park or other factors.

From a design perspective I would think it odd that the plane wasn't designed to land with its load though the weights and risks could make it a doctrine matter vs a single plane in ideal conditions.

I would suspect the later torpedo bombers with internal bays or recessed bays would be even more capable of landing with them. Again, doctrine may have said not to.

Presented for discussion regarding the launched-no-target planes vs the never-launched planes.

[brygun]

Jan 5, 2020 22:17:33 GMT -6 jeb94 said:

For aircraft that launch I can understand the jettisoning of payloads in order to get the aircraft back on deck but if the aircraft were never launched and unreadied what happens in game to those torpedoes?  Are additional torpedoes then removed from inventory the next time a strike is readied?  If that is the case then its a problem.

That is indeed an issue. CVs are coded to have 2 torpedoes per TRB (torpedo bomber). Currently ready and unready your squadron twice and you no longer have any torpedoes.

[Fredrik W]

This will be fixed in the next update. When TBs stand down the torpedoes will be returned.

[oldpop2000]

Modern Naval aircraft have a specification called "bring back" weight. For the F/A 18-E/F it is about three times the amount of payload to the ship. This is due to many factors including higher thrust to weight ratios, better aerodynamics, angled deck and many other factors.

However, in WW2, the aircraft had low power to weight ratios and no angled decks. So, there was essentially no "bring back". There were generally only two torpedoes available for each bomber. This was why the US Navy developed under way replenishment for the carriers with fuel for the ship, aircraft and stores to keep them at sea. It doesn't matter whether the torpedo is hung externally or in a bomb bay, it is still a dangerous weapon and very heavy to bring aboard a carrier. Another issue is that ordnance is not armed until after the deck launch and not until you come into contact with the enemy fleet that you are going to attack. At first it was done manually, but later it was done with an electrical arming system. This caused problems at Midway, but the problem was eventually fixed with wiring changes.

Keep in mind that when you circle and get into the landing pattern then get on final approach in WW2, you are in a dirty configuration. Wheels are down, flaps down, props at course pitch, engine at probably full manifold pressure. Just before landing as you reach the end of the deck, you chop the throttle. Now, during the approach if you get a wave off, you have to hit the throttle hard, turn and fly off. That is difficult carrying a 1900 lbs. torpedo.

[oldpop2000]

Jan 6, 2020 10:37:06 GMT -6 Fredrik W said:

This will be fixed in the next update. When TBs stand down the torpedoes will be returned.

I think that the policy of returning torpedoes to the ammunition lockers down below should be reviewed carefully because there can be conditions that would require the bombers to stay on deck, fully loaded. At the end of the day, yes, the ordnance can be removed and dropped down to the ammunition lockers. This procedure will require time and effort. Now, if a mission is scrubbed because the target is lost, it would make better sense to leave the planes loaded until the scouts relocate the target. If the scrubbing is due to weather, then the first action is the best. Tie down the planes, if there is a deck park, remove the ordnance and send it to the lockers. If there is no deck park yet, then it would still be a good idea. Just my suggestion for examination.

[trenton59]

I think the important part is that the torpedoes cease to exist after the aircraft is stood down, not if it is historical or not for them to be taken off the planes, but rather that at present when you tell a torpedo squadron to stand down without leaving the carrier, they proceed to throw the torpedoes overboard.