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Post by tortugapower on Mar 9, 2020 12:36:27 GMT -6
(It comes at the insistence of several from my video comments section that I report this bug again.)
"Friendly Ships in Line of Fire" appears when there are no friendly ships in any reasonable arc towards the enemy target. I've seen no friendlies within a full broadside (180-degrees), yet this is reported.
I've also seen that friendly ships can be in the line of fire, and torpedoes will be launched.
This is an issue as old as RtW2: do we know what's the status on fixing this?
(Maybe the team can let me have a crack at coding it. I ought to be willing to put my money where my mouth is!)
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Post by christian on Mar 10, 2020 4:30:42 GMT -6
its also a major problem for when i try to launch torpedoes from destroyers in one giant line (particularly visible in surprise attacks as japan) it seems ONLY the front destroyer (lead) wants to manually fire torpedoes the other ships all have "friendly ships in the line of fire" even when the target is within a 70-110 degree angle broadside towards either side within 500 yards yet apparently shooting almost 90 degrees broadside poses a risk to a ship 1000 yards behind right 0 degrees behind you
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Post by williammiller on Mar 10, 2020 11:33:10 GMT -6
(It comes at the insistence of several from my video comments section that I report this bug again.) "Friendly Ships in Line of Fire" appears when there are no friendly ships in any reasonable arc towards the enemy target. I've seen no friendlies within a full broadside (180-degrees), yet this is reported. I've also seen that friendly ships can be in the line of fire, and torpedoes will be launched. This is an issue as old as RtW2: do we know what's the status on fixing this?(Maybe the team can let me have a crack at coding it. I ought to be willing to put my money where my mouth is!) I'll put this up front in our internal list for looking at again, and see if the beta testers can discover any patterns/etc with it. |
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 10, 2020 12:55:40 GMT -6
I'll put this up front in our internal list for looking at again, and see if the beta testers can discover any patterns/etc with it. I think one of the most helpful things that could be done is to extend the existing visualization of the torpedo track for possible shots to cover shots blocked by arc/range/friendly fire, and to add the target track and, when applicable, the track of the interfering ship and the point of closest approach between the interfering ship and the torpedo. This would allow bogus blocks to be plainly obvious visually. |
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Post by tortugapower on Mar 10, 2020 16:56:10 GMT -6
I agree, more information would be helpful for debugging. A simple alternative to what rimbecano said is to have the game tell us what friendly ship is blocking the torpedo solution (prohibiting firing). This is nowhere near as complete as rimbecano's suggestion, but it doesn't require GUI work so should be much easier on dev resources to implement (and I'm guessing those are at a premium). Cheers, Tortuga |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 11, 2020 10:03:49 GMT -6
This may not be relevant, but I discovered in my naval books that it was found that firing submerged torpedoes above 24.5 knots was totally inaccurate and this forced the British to move the torpedo tubes at least 10 feet above the water on the deck. I don't know how the game handles firing torpedoes from submerged torpedo tubes but just something to determine.
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Post by dizzy on Mar 11, 2020 10:28:31 GMT -6
I agree, more information would be helpful for debugging. A simple alternative to what rimbecano said is to have the game tell us what friendly ship is blocking the torpedo solution (prohibiting firing). This is nowhere near as complete as rimbecano's suggestion, but it doesn't require GUI work so should be much easier on dev resources to implement (and I'm guessing those are at a premium). Cheers, Tortuga Well, aside from a future forum flooding of bug reports which will contain pics of torps not firing and noted offending vessel blocking, what good will that do? If our own friendly AI is allowed to shoot our own ships with our own torps, lets just have a check mark box in options that allow us to fire regardless of friendly ship in the way. |
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Post by tortugapower on Mar 11, 2020 12:55:01 GMT -6
I agree, more information would be helpful for debugging. A simple alternative to what rimbecano said is to have the game tell us what friendly ship is blocking the torpedo solution (prohibiting firing). This is nowhere near as complete as rimbecano's suggestion, but it doesn't require GUI work so should be much easier on dev resources to implement (and I'm guessing those are at a premium). Cheers, Tortuga Well, aside from a future forum flooding of bug reports which will contain pics of torps not firing and noted offending vessel blocking, what good will that do? If our own friendly AI is allowed to shoot our own ships with our own torps, lets just have a check mark box in options that allow us to fire regardless of friendly ship in the way. Depends on what you're interested in. If you want to be able to fire a torpedo when blocked by a friendly ship, that's a separate request. That will solve only one symptom of the underlying problem. If you want to solve the problem with torpedo algorithm (which is the underlying issue, and impacts all AI ships not just Captain-mode player-controlled ones), then such information will be helpful for debug. |
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 11, 2020 12:55:16 GMT -6
I agree, more information would be helpful for debugging. A simple alternative to what rimbecano said is to have the game tell us what friendly ship is blocking the torpedo solution (prohibiting firing). This is nowhere near as complete as rimbecano's suggestion, but it doesn't require GUI work so should be much easier on dev resources to implement (and I'm guessing those are at a premium). Cheers, Tortuga Well, aside from a future forum flooding of bug reports which will contain pics of torps not firing and noted offending vessel blocking, what good will that do? It will allow the team to know exactly what the bug is with spurious friendly ship in line of fire reports. For example, it could be: 1) A bug causes an enemy ship (maybe even the target!) to be treated as friendly. 2) A bug causes negative-time-from-launch solutions to be considered as well as positive-time-from-launch (so that the friendly fire blocker basically acts as if the ship were firing two torpedoes in opposite directions, and every ship were moving backwards as well as forwards). 3) The friendly fire blocker is working, but simply too sensitive. Knowing which ship is interfering in a given screenshot would significantly help in narrowing this down. In case 1 above, it could easily be the case that friendly ships are being treated as enemy as well as enemy ships being treated as friendly, in which case two bugs could be killed with one patch. |
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Post by kotori87 on Mar 12, 2020 11:03:06 GMT -6
Thank you for looking into this. The torpedo IFF bug is a huge problem that rears its ugly head in every major battle, surprise attack, etc. that I fight. It is the whole reason I switched to playing Captain's Mode in the first place. I would much rather play in Admiral's Mode but my torpedo-boats require far too much babysitting right now. I like the idea of identifying which ship is blocking the torpedo shot. While that doesn't actually fix the problem, it would help the beta testers track down the specifics of the problem. It would also help regular players in the mean time adjust their destroyer attacks, or at least move the offending ship out of the way. That's definitely a welcome step in the right direction.
If you're looking for a quick fix, how about this? The most frequent and frustrating times I get hit by the torpedo IFF bug is when I have a division of DDs or CLs in line ahead formation, and the torpedo IFF check is clearly triggering on another ship in the line. Rather than including a manual override as some people have requested, would it be possible to add an exception to the torpedo IFF check for ships in the same division while in Line Ahead formation?
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Post by dizzy on Mar 12, 2020 13:21:30 GMT -6
tortugapowerI don’t think that’s necessary for a public build. I agree with you completely that it would illuminate the problem thoroughly, but the dev and beta team can play with that toy behind the curtain and fix their own problem that has been pervasive in every build thus far. It’s obviously an issue, being constantly reported over and over and over. It’s like the devs are coronavirus hoax supporters when it comes to the IFF torpedo bug. Cmon guys, get with the program.
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Post by durhamdave on Mar 12, 2020 16:40:04 GMT -6
I've had this problem and I've noticed it is more of a problem when ships get really bunched up, so possibly when there is a friendly ship too close in any direction it counts as 'in the line of fire'. Still had them launching under AI control a bit too freely, once lost a ship to a torpedo hit from a supporting destroyer on the far side of the main line from the enemy.
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Post by antonindvorak on Mar 14, 2020 14:06:36 GMT -6
IIRC the German navy also found that their traditional way of launching torpedoes from surface vessels (diving in nose first) became problematic at high speeds (~30kts(?)), especially firing abeam. They had to let the torpedo splash into the water flat, using e.g. a rail in the top of the launcher, supporting the torpedo until it has completely left the tube. In the 21-INCH ABOVE WATER TORPEDO TUBES MARK 14 AND MODS AND MARK 15 AND MODS manual, search for "T-guide" or look at "page 2". It does not explain the reason for the rail, though, just the care and feeding of it. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 14, 2020 14:23:41 GMT -6
IIRC the German navy also found that their traditional way of launching torpedoes from surface vessels (diving in nose first) became problematic at high speeds (~30kts(?)), especially firing abeam. They had to let the torpedo splash into the water flat, using e.g. a rail in the top of the launcher, supporting the torpedo until it has completely left the tube. In the 21-INCH ABOVE WATER TORPEDO TUBES MARK 14 AND MODS AND MARK 15 AND MODS manual, search for "T-guide" or look at "page 2". It does not explain the reason for the rail, though, just the care and feeding of it. The t-guides is designed to maintain the torpedoes straight and level forward movement out of the surface torpedo tube while it is exiting. You do not want the torpedo to wobble or it might hit the side of the ship. You also want it to maintain the direction toward the target until the motor ignites when it hits the water, then the guidance system will take control. that doesn't happen until the motor starts. It works different on a submarine because when the outer doors are open, the tube floods. Now when the torpedo is launched, the motor starts immediately and the guidance system begins to guide the torpedo on the designated path. |
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Post by antonindvorak on Mar 14, 2020 18:16:36 GMT -6
The t-guides is designed to maintain the torpedoes straight and level forward movement out of the surface torpedo tube while it is exiting. [...] You also want it to maintain the direction toward the target until the motor ignites when it hits the water, then the guidance system will take control. that doesn't happen until the motor starts. "Level" being the important word here. You can do without the rail, but when the water is rushing sideways against the torpedo at 20 or 30kts, nose in first will pull around the tail by inertia. Which throws it off course, even _if_ the gyro manages to get the torpedo back on course. The turning radius of the torpedo will offset the torpedo quite a bit, which will likely cause a miss. The guidance system activates at launch (gyro(s) spin up), but of course even if the actuators are enabled, they can only work in water. A tripping latch is provided on each barrel to start the torpedo's engines by engaging and tripping the starting lever of the torpedo as it begins to move forward in the barrel. Looks like the torpedo engines at least in this case are started at launch, not on water contact. |
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