conner
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Post by conner on Oct 28, 2020 17:07:09 GMT -6
I went on a quest to find the cheapest B possible. Backstory behind this was I was getting annoyed at the battleship cap, like really annoyed with it. I only build CAs for my legacy capital fleet and build Super CLs but those are a tale for another day. Normal Bs use up too much funds for what they are worth and I never really used them in combat since CAs were way better. I wanted more funds to build CAs and CLs and the Bs weren't allowing me to do that. I ended up coming up with this design. It's the smallest B you can make and is also the cheapest. Will try and answer any questions in a timely manner. Attachments:
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 28, 2020 17:18:15 GMT -6
I went on a quest to find the cheapest B possible. Backstory behind this was I was getting annoyed at the battleship cap, like really annoyed with it. I only build CAs for my legacy capital fleet and build Super CLs but those are a tale for another day. Normal Bs use up too much funds for what they are worth and I never really used them in combat since CAs were way better. I wanted more funds to build CAs and CLs and the Bs weren't allowing me to do that. I ended up coming up with this design. It's the smallest B you can make and is also the cheapest. Will try and answer any questions in a timely manner. I think you could rename this as a Coastal Defense Ship sometimes called Coastal Battleships. with the low freeboard, short range. These are great for the Nordic countries and Thailand. Greece, Portugal, Sweden would love it.
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conner
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Post by conner on Oct 28, 2020 17:19:19 GMT -6
I went on a quest to find the cheapest B possible. Backstory behind this was I was getting annoyed at the battleship cap, like really annoyed with it. I only build CAs for my legacy capital fleet and build Super CLs but those are a tale for another day. Normal Bs use up too much funds for what they are worth and I never really used them in combat since CAs were way better. I wanted more funds to build CAs and CLs and the Bs weren't allowing me to do that. I ended up coming up with this design. It's the smallest B you can make and is also the cheapest. Will try and answer any questions in a timely manner. I think you could rename this as a Coastal Defense Ship sometimes called Coastal Battleships. with the low freeboard, short range. These are great for the Nordic countries and Thailand. Greece, Portugal, Sweden would love it. I just call it the scrapyard ship cause that's where it's gonna be going when I get my Dreads out.
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Post by BathTubAdmiral on Oct 29, 2020 3:25:39 GMT -6
16" armour on the 3" secondaries? That's nice to give your sailors something to hide behind in case shooting starts before you get to build a dreadnought ... Doesn't keep the ships from sinking, though ...
Btw., I highly doubt these are the cheapest Bs you can make. Indeed, they might be the costliest ones, as these ships are dead weight and every penny put into them is wasted.
As you neither can pick your battles nor the force compositions in this game, there's a good chance they'll all get sunk in an early wars battle, and then you'll get blockaded without being able to do anything about it.
Oh, thanks for showing an interesting bug, btw. .
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Post by cuthalin on Oct 29, 2020 4:07:47 GMT -6
Am i correct that 20 of these on Reserve Fleet would count as 120 base points to the blockade calculations, and so generally stop you being blockaded ? Where as 5 normal B's for the same cost, would only be 30 points ?
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Post by stevethecat on Oct 29, 2020 7:30:49 GMT -6
16" armour on the 3" secondaries? That's nice to give your sailors something to hide behind in case shooting starts before you get to build a dreadnought ... Doesn't keep the ships from sinking, though ...
Btw., I highly doubt these are the cheapest Bs you can make. Indeed, they might be the costliest ones, as these ships are dead weight and every penny put into them is wasted.
As you neither can pick your battles nor the force compositions in this game, there's a good chance they'll all get sunk in an early wars battle, and then you'll get blockaded without being able to do anything about it.
Oh, thanks for showing an interesting bug, btw. .
That's only a risk if the game ever picks them for a battle, but as you can go multiple wars with the generator never selecting B/BBs it might be worth the risk while waiting for better tech.
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Post by aeson on Oct 29, 2020 7:57:35 GMT -6
Am i correct that 20 of these on Reserve Fleet would count as 120 base points to the blockade calculations, and so generally stop you being blockaded ?
No. Ships set to RF do not count towards fleet strength for blockade purposes.
I would further comment that Conner has basically set up a self-fulfilling prophecy here - he claims that Bs are worthless, so he builds absolutely terrible Bs and thus when he needs them he finds them badly lacking. In my experience, battleships appear in battle often enough that I would not consider it advisable to use a battleship this poorly armed and armored as most powers, especially as it is possible to get fairly reasonable early-game battleships on displacements down to ~7,000 tons.
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Post by hawkeye on Oct 29, 2020 10:01:48 GMT -6
In my experience, battleships appear in battle often enough that I would not consider it advisable to use a battleship this poorly armed and armored as most powers, especially as it is possible to get fairly reasonable early-game battleships on displacements down to ~7,000 tons.
Agreed. I have fought plenty coastal raids/convoy attacks/defense with large forces, fielding a B division and at least one fleet engagement in pretty much every war I had. My personal "doctrine" is to make my legacy Bs as good as possible (basically "Quality over Quantity") and I had good successes with this approach.
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Post by nimrod on Oct 29, 2020 10:18:13 GMT -6
Conner,
Thank you for posting, it is an interesting design and its got my wheels turning. I find myself playing without CA's and focusing on CL, DD and KE for the most part and likewise find the B's to be fairly burdensome in battle as well as strategically - usually convert them to CVLs or send them off for colonial duties when tensions are high yellow or low orange. I do like my fast sub 30,000 ton anti-air BCs and BBs though...
Some slight tweaks and it would be a pretty decent 3rd rate B with the low cost. For example I assume you have 235 rounds of 9" ammo to bring the weight up to avoid the maximum 5% free weight design dis-qualifier. Upping to 4"-6" secondaries might provide some additional usable firepower while not significantly upping the cost if main ammo was offloaded. The design could seriously help Russia and or AH with their need for blockade tonnage, as noted by Cuthalin, while still being usable for convoy defense missions through the early / mid teens.
I'll also have to check and see what I can do for an anti-air version - refitted DP 3"-5" secondaries along with a sub 8K weight might be worthwhile... Something with comparable HAA to my standard CL designs; but with enhanced in battle distraction abilities and blockade points. Yes I have built ships with the purpose of distracting the AI, I mean attracting the attention of enemy aircraft and gunners so my CLs DDs can close the gap.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 15:51:20 GMT -6
Its usually not worth building a decent early pre dreadnoughts. Even as France, I usually stick to German-like mini-predreads (not Austrian micro-predreads, those are far too weak). If you spend all ur cash on early Bs, you will not gain anything. Even a cheap B with 8in main belt can still deflect enemy shells. And those cheap 11in main guns are usually much better than 12 and 13in guns, as those usually spend all the time sending their shells to the bottom of the ocean, while smaller guns loaded with HE can at least score some hits and start some fires. When I discover the semi-dreadnoughts, I start building decent ships. A nice B with 4x12in (with APs usually at least somewhat effective in 1905) and 8x10in secondaries can smash almost any pre-dreadnought the AI can produce. Even its secondary guns are almost as effective as primary guns, and with a broadside of 4 main guns and 4 big secondaries, the ships counts almost as two average AI pre-dreadnoughts. And when I get the 2 gun secondaries, I sometimes go for 4x13in + 12x10in in 2 gun turrets. Those massive semi dreadnoughts can fight with a first gen dreadnoughts on an equal terms and I usually only scrap them once the battle line becames at least 2 knots faster (typicaly since most my BBs can go at least 20kts). Before that, I sometimes even refit those semi dreadnoughts with central firing and stuff. I usually put at least 8.5in of armor on my secondary turrets, because such ship really suffer from the turret syndrome and if its not armored enough, it may get blown up easily. I have built about 12 classes of such semi dreadnoughts in about 4 different campaigns and I have never experienced any problems. But when it comes to the basic pre dreads with small secondaries, screw them, better invest in a good CA with 23kts top speed and 11in guns...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 15:56:22 GMT -6
This is Borodino. You´d better not mess with Borodino. Germans tried it once and it changed their mind so much that they proposed an alliance some 5 months later. Attachments:
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conner
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Post by conner on Oct 31, 2020 22:44:57 GMT -6
16" armour on the 3" secondaries? That's nice to give your sailors something to hide behind in case shooting starts before you get to build a dreadnought ... Doesn't keep the ships from sinking, though ...
Btw., I highly doubt these are the cheapest Bs you can make. Indeed, they might be the costliest ones, as these ships are dead weight and every penny put into them is wasted.
As you neither can pick your battles nor the force compositions in this game, there's a good chance they'll all get sunk in an early wars battle, and then you'll get blockaded without being able to do anything about it.
Oh, thanks for showing an interesting bug, btw. .
The purpose of them is to not fight. They are just there to fill the battleship cap, that is it. If they go into battle, welp, I'll just send them back to port. And yeah on the second fleet battle I went into, it sank. Not a big loss as it's cheaper than a CL. And as for being blockaded, I still have my 16k ton CAs which are my main battleline units. I never use normal Bs because they have a set life expectancy. CAs don't.
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conner
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Posts: 38
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Post by conner on Oct 31, 2020 22:47:24 GMT -6
Am i correct that 20 of these on Reserve Fleet would count as 120 base points to the blockade calculations, and so generally stop you being blockaded ? No. Ships set to RF do not count towards fleet strength for blockade purposes. I would further comment that Conner has basically set up a self-fulfilling prophecy here - he claims that Bs are worthless, so he builds absolutely terrible Bs and thus when he needs them he finds them badly lacking. In my experience, battleships appear in battle often enough that I would not consider it advisable to use a battleship this poorly armed and armored as most powers, especially as it is possible to get fairly reasonable early-game battleships on displacements down to ~7,000 tons.
"only build CAs for my legacy capital fleet" Yeah, I think I'm fine. Bs are really not useful. I wouldn't build them but the battleship cap exists, so that isn't possible. The one B loss was that Benbow I posted earlier. I deliberately sent him in there to see how it'd do.
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conner
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Post by conner on Oct 31, 2020 22:53:59 GMT -6
16" armour on the 3" secondaries? That's nice to give your sailors something to hide behind in case shooting starts before you get to build a dreadnought ... Doesn't keep the ships from sinking, though ...
Btw., I highly doubt these are the cheapest Bs you can make. Indeed, they might be the costliest ones, as these ships are dead weight and every penny put into them is wasted.
As you neither can pick your battles nor the force compositions in this game, there's a good chance they'll all get sunk in an early wars battle, and then you'll get blockaded without being able to do anything about it.
Oh, thanks for showing an interesting bug, btw. .
That's only a risk if the game ever picks them for a battle, but as you can go multiple wars with the generator never selecting B/BBs it might be worth the risk while waiting for better tech. Basically this but there's no risk since CAs are in every major battle I have because that's all I have. And in my current war I've only had 2. One when the war started and it ended with me slam dunking the German fleet to the point where they couldn't mount any major offensives. Second one was when the French joined into the same war. I also slam dunked their fleet to the point where they could point any major offensives.
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conner
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Post by conner on Oct 31, 2020 22:58:05 GMT -6
Conner, Some slight tweaks and it would be a pretty decent 3rd rate B with the low cost. For example I assume you have 235 rounds of 9" ammo to bring the weight up to avoid the maximum 5% free weight design dis-qualifier. Upping to 4"-6" secondaries might provide some additional usable firepower while not significantly upping the cost if main ammo was offloaded. The design could seriously help Russia and or AH with their need for blockade tonnage, as noted by Cuthalin, while still being usable for convoy defense missions through the early / mid teens. The secondary armour is actually the main thing keeping the disqualifier at bay. I only upped the ammo cause it was the cheapest option I had available. But again, this isn't meant for fighting so any suggestion to improve its capability is instantly rejected because it increases the cost. That's money that won't be used since these will be in port most of the time. As for blockade use, people on the RtW server pointed that out. Blockaders don't need to fight, they just need to sit there while more equipped ships do all the fighting.
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