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Post by blarglol on Apr 7, 2024 13:55:55 GMT -6
Also something I reported as a bug a while back - HASM planes per the manual should only be shoot down by Hv sam, yet it seem escorting M sam ships can shoot at JA. That's not true it's just how you read the manual. That table lists the sequence the weapons systems fire in, not the only thing they can attack. It is illogical to assume that a heavy jet fighter or attack plane could only be engaged by HSAM. When in the proper engagement envelope, medium and light weapons are equally appropriate.
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Post by larcrivereagle on Apr 7, 2024 15:36:44 GMT -6
Speaking of Carriers in the Jet Age, does armoring the hangar do anything against missiles? I've only ever built either CA/BX conversion or completely unarmored new-build carriers myself. Given how easily they die, I'm assuming the deck armor from the BX conversions is built on top of, giving in effect a mag box with an unarmored flight deck on top of it?
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Post by director on Apr 8, 2024 12:23:32 GMT -6
larcrivereagle - deck armor in all ships is the armor inside the hull, horizontal and over the engines and magazine spaces. Belt armor is vertical and on the sides of the hull. For carriers, it is possible to add flight deck and hangar side armor - those are listed in the same area as the aircraft complement and are separate from deck and belt armor.
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Post by larcrivereagle on Apr 8, 2024 14:35:23 GMT -6
Hmm. Less related, but I noticed you could easily put many thousands of tons of armor into a few inches around a hangar for a single helicopter, which I thought was odd.
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Post by xxpu69yslayerxx on Apr 9, 2024 1:44:12 GMT -6
I didn't read the whole thread but..... From the first post...
"The simple way to fix this would be to give JA, either 2 HASM, or 4 MASM as loadout options, while giving HJF ATLEAST 2 MASM Pictures attached to show the viability of such loadouts, additional pictures can be viewed in the suggestion."
Is this something that CAN actually be modded in using the files on hand, if so I can help out?
Kind regards
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Post by t3rm1dor on Apr 9, 2024 1:56:49 GMT -6
Also something I reported as a bug a while back - HASM planes per the manual should only be shoot down by Hv sam, yet it seem escorting M sam ships can shoot at JA. That's not true it's just how you read the manual. That table lists the sequence the weapons systems fire in, not the only thing they can attack. It is illogical to assume that a heavy jet fighter or attack plane could only be engaged by HSAM. When in the proper engagement envelope, medium and light weapons are equally appropriate. Except that the list is accurate for everything else- if hvasm fire before Msam, that means that the planes doing the shooting are doing it outside the range of the anti air defenses -that's why masm planes are inmune to AA once you get the tech in the 19forties . Also, just look at the ranges of the systems involve, heavy Jet figthers use a different type of missile than JA and the examples given in the manual have ranges well excedding medium sam examples (for the HASM).
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Post by khorne8 on Apr 10, 2024 10:55:51 GMT -6
Standard carrier design but filled with HJFs with 1-2 squadrons on nighttime training, then setting them to support your major surface fleets, they will essentially provide a CAP "sheet" over your ships you would basically never use them for strike in an attempt to maintain high readyness/numbers and reduce aircrew experience loss and because you cannot replace airframes For what it's worth, I've just taken two campaigns through to 1970 and I completely agree that (1) in terms of hitting power per unit cost, carrier air groups are underpowered compared to SSMs and (especially) HSAMs and MSAMs firing in the surface attack role, and (2) carrier air groups suffer terribly from the low replenishment rates. In the second of those campaigns, I gave your CAP carrier doctrine a try. It went well, especially because the reduced spending on CVWs allowed me to really spam HSAMs for antisurface work. I also tried building a bespoke CAP carrier hull (with the ghost of the Sea Control Ship in the room): 30k tons exactly with steam cats to qualify for HJFs, which could just barely fit 20 HJFs, 20 LJFs, and specials. Unsure of whether I prefer them to half the number of CAP focused supercarriers, though the redundant hulls are nice. The problem I ran into however is that HJFs are subject to the same iron law of bad replenishment. In a fleet battle against a peer navy, I found that even restricted to defense duties, the HJF squadrons took heavy attrition. It's true that the enemy's losses were far worse, but if I understand the replenishment mechanics properly, when rebuilding their CVWs afterward, they were able to drink from two straws (HJF, JA) while I could only drink from one (HJF). Suggestion: an option in the doctrine panel like the current missile stocks option, but for reserve airframes. Prudent navies keep a reserve of airframes (and pilots) above what they can fit onto their carriers at any given time. I'd pay to do that in game if I could. You can do this, sort of, by keeping a spare CVW assigned to shore stations and then rotating it aboard as necessary, but that's fiddly, and it doesn't preserve veterancy afloat. Edit: an even cooler way to do this would be to model the Davis-Monthan boneyard. When HJFs get replaced by a new model, put the old ones into reserves from which they can be pulled in case CVWs have to be rebuilt from scratch.
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Post by larcrivereagle on Apr 10, 2024 12:18:17 GMT -6
The problem I ran into however is that HJFs are subject to the same iron law of bad replenishment. In a fleet battle against a peer navy, I found that even restricted to defense duties, the HJF squadrons took heavy attrition. It's true that the enemy's losses were far worse, but if I understand the replenishment mechanics properly, when rebuilding their CVWs afterward, they were able to drink from two straws (HJF, JA) while I could only drink from one (HJF). Suggestion: an option in the doctrine panel like the current missile stocks option, but for reserve airframes. Prudent navies keep a reserve of airframes (and pilots) above what they can fit onto their carriers at any given time. I'd pay to do that in game if I could. You can do this, sort of, by keeping a spare CVW assigned to shore stations and then rotating it aboard as necessary, but that's fiddly, and it doesn't preserve veterancy afloat. Edit: an even cooler way to do this would be to model the Davis-Monthan boneyard. When HJFs get replaced by a new model, put the old ones into reserves from which they can be pulled in case CVWs have to be rebuilt from scratch. Can't you do this already by fitting out land base airwings that are carrier trained, then transferring them over to the carrier when needed? I was attempting to do so with DBs to replace the JAs when those fell below replacement level, but the war I was in ended too quickly. It should also be possible to keep multiple types of the same aircraft role in service to double dip on replacement rates, either by just not marking the older model obsolete or by accepting a privately developed aircraft for this purpose. I've had multiple models of non-obsolete HJF, JA, and LJF in service at the same time before
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Post by khorne8 on Apr 10, 2024 13:26:38 GMT -6
You can, and I said so ("You can do this, sort of, by keeping a spare CVW assigned to shore stations and then rotating it aboard as necessary, but that's fiddly, and it doesn't preserve veterancy afloat.") A worse problem with this workaround is that you can't transfer airframes between squadrons, and disbanding a squadron seems to make the airframes in that squadron vanish into thin air. And as far as I can tell, the fixed supply of replenishments is parted out evenly among the squadrons using that type. So you're liable to end up with a bunch of half strength squadrons that you can't merge. What I'm after is a proper replacement pool, and ideally a way to pay to make it bigger.
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2024 5:59:39 GMT -6
I have long come to the conclusion that HJF are too expensive to worth the cost, and there is no really a need for more than one night trained wing for CAP per carrier, LJF are much cheaper to run CAP and escort at day. Also I'm surprised that the other big elephant in the root wasn't mentioned, that asm share a pool so using JA Hasm deplete the shared ammo for Hjf and Ljf. Also something I reported as a bug a while back - HASM planes per the manual should only be shoot down by Hv sam, yet it seem escorting M sam ships can shoot at JA. Finally I don't think bombs are a much better alternative considering it further increases losses, and that even with a 20% something hit rate for Asm you would be crippling or outrigth destroying most ships (plus that bomba are still hilariously ineffective against armored ships). keep in mind with HASM, ASM, HSSM and MSSM nerfs alongside the HE nerfs, they now fail to pen most cruiser armor (4-5") which means heavy cruisers can conceivably survive 4 hits JA are just too expensive for only being able to do a single role compared to HJF
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2024 6:00:42 GMT -6
I didn't read the whole thread but..... From the first post... "The simple way to fix this would be to give JA, either 2 HASM, or 4 MASM as loadout options, while giving HJF ATLEAST 2 MASM Pictures attached to show the viability of such loadouts, additional pictures can be viewed in the suggestion." Is this something that CAN actually be modded in using the files on hand, if so I can help out? Kind regards No, you would have to breach EULA and know how to hex edit. Planes are not moddable otherwise
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2024 6:06:53 GMT -6
Standard carrier design but filled with HJFs with 1-2 squadrons on nighttime training, then setting them to support your major surface fleets, they will essentially provide a CAP "sheet" over your ships you would basically never use them for strike in an attempt to maintain high readyness/numbers and reduce aircrew experience loss and because you cannot replace airframes For what it's worth, I've just taken two campaigns through to 1970 and I completely agree that (1) in terms of hitting power per unit cost, carrier air groups are underpowered compared to SSMs and (especially) HSAMs and MSAMs firing in the surface attack role, and (2) carrier air groups suffer terribly from the low replenishment rates. In the second of those campaigns, I gave your CAP carrier doctrine a try. It went well, especially because the reduced spending on CVWs allowed me to really spam HSAMs for antisurface work. I also tried building a bespoke CAP carrier hull (with the ghost of the Sea Control Ship in the room): 30k tons exactly with steam cats to qualify for HJFs, which could just barely fit 20 HJFs, 20 LJFs, and specials. Unsure of whether I prefer them to half the number of CAP focused supercarriers, though the redundant hulls are nice. The problem I ran into however is that HJFs are subject to the same iron law of bad replenishment. In a fleet battle against a peer navy, I found that even restricted to defense duties, the HJF squadrons took heavy attrition. It's true that the enemy's losses were far worse, but if I understand the replenishment mechanics properly, when rebuilding their CVWs afterward, they were able to drink from two straws (HJF, JA) while I could only drink from one (HJF). Suggestion: an option in the doctrine panel like the current missile stocks option, but for reserve airframes. Prudent navies keep a reserve of airframes (and pilots) above what they can fit onto their carriers at any given time. I'd pay to do that in game if I could. You can do this, sort of, by keeping a spare CVW assigned to shore stations and then rotating it aboard as necessary, but that's fiddly, and it doesn't preserve veterancy afloat. Edit: an even cooler way to do this would be to model the Davis-Monthan boneyard. When HJFs get replaced by a new model, put the old ones into reserves from which they can be pulled in case CVWs have to be rebuilt from scratch. the game will automatically build 30 "reserve" planes But yes you will take attrition, its somewhat unavoidable, one thing you can do to keep a base level of cap is add prop fighters (a squadron of 10) even if all 10 die, and they are poor skill level due to dying, they get replaced over twice as fast as HJF/LJF JA is indeed a seperate pool (and with slightly higher replacement rates 6 instead of 5) though the biggest issue for the AI is that these planes cannot do CAP Late war, when you have effectively decapacitated the enemy air arm, you can send escorted strikes with HJF missiles, and their carriers basically cannot defend themselves except for sams. i wouldnt worry too much about veterancy, you will run out of planes before low veterancy becomes an issue, this is with elite pilot training + no pilot recovery when you can loose 5 HJF and 6-7 LJF a month maximum, suddenly you arent lacking pilots (if you loose 2 planes and get 2 new ones into an elite squadron, it will take the "average" experience level in the squadron, so you could have half new half elite and it would still qualify as above average)
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Post by khorne8 on Apr 12, 2024 15:19:56 GMT -6
I'm glad that there's some reserve, but if it's a fixed 30, that's a bit silly, and an unnecessary nerf to big CVW play. A late game, fleet size 8+ USA player who fields 600 HJF should get more than a 5% reserve. At minimum, it should be a percentage - say 30 plane minimum or 20% of deployed airframes, whichever is greater. But again, it would be great if there was a doctrinal option for this like there is for missiles. Can you point me to the reserve in the save files?
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Post by christian on Apr 13, 2024 3:46:07 GMT -6
I'm glad that there's some reserve, but if it's a fixed 30, that's a bit silly, and an unnecessary nerf to big CVW play. A late game, fleet size 8+ USA player who fields 600 HJF should get more than a 5% reserve. At minimum, it should be a percentage - say 30 plane minimum or 20% of deployed airframes, whichever is greater. But again, it would be great if there was a doctrinal option for this like there is for missiles. Can you point me to the reserve in the save files? not visible in the files, its visible in the aircraft procurement tab not fixed exactly 30 it varies slightly Attachments:
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Post by larcrivereagle on Apr 13, 2024 10:02:59 GMT -6
I suppose this means I should space out my supercarrier production
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