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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 14:59:23 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 15:13:33 GMT -6
haha yes, diehard WW2 aircraft "enthusiasts" should familiarize themselves with every webpage on that site and source the hell outta it with forum debates:D
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 16:16:17 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 17:13:41 GMT -6
while having some knowledge of ww2 prop planes it is not comparable to some of the true "nerds" that focuses solely on that era, my prev post was mainly aimed at them prop heads ehehe! indeed however that they can be a great source for flight modelling, if one is to make say a flight sim. those are truly invaluable. Whereas in e.g. 1996 one would probably need to spend hundreds of $$ or more on books for references and those themselves could be inaccurate. I did a lot of research on the Sabre for the past few years and the dtic site ( www.dtic.mil/dtic/ ) and nasa server ( ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19930086343 ) was great. also aero research center, think i bought this one arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.1980-3039 but mostly, american taxpayers (and college interns that digitized them) at work!.. also avialogs that have many old aircraft flight manuals www.avialogs.com/subscription is needed for direct DL but they can be freely viewed as pictures. the advantage of ww2 though is that almost everything is de-classed... and it's a hugely popular topic so info is never scarce. i mean just look at the depth of info on wwiiaircraftperformance...
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 17:28:32 GMT -6
while having some knowledge of ww2 prop planes it is not comparable to some of the true "nerds" that focuses solely on that era, my prev post was mainly aimed at them prop heads ehehe! indeed however that they can be a great source for flight modelling, if one is to make say a flight sim. those are truly invaluable. Whereas in e.g. 1996 one would probably need to spend hundreds of $$ or more on books for references and those themselves could be inaccurate. I did a lot of research on the Sabre for the past few years and the dtic site ( www.dtic.mil/dtic/ ) and nasa server ( ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19930086343 ) was great. also aero research center, think i bought this one arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.1980-3039 but mostly, american taxpayers (and college interns that digitized them) at work!.. also avialogs that have many old aircraft flight manuals www.avialogs.com/subscription is needed for direct DL but they can be freely viewed as pictures. the advantage of ww2 though is that almost everything is de-classed... and it's a hugely popular topic so info is never scarce. I think that is an interesting site, thanks for the link. I don't know if I qualify as a "nerd" but I have been around aviation for my entire life, my dad, mom, grandfather and I all worked around or on Naval aircraft. I have studied it, discussed it with former WWII naval pilots etc. It is my first love and I have numerous manuals, books, PDF's etc. So, I guess I get close. But I still find things on DTIC including former top secret documents concerning air combat in Vietnam... my war. I once had an interesting conversation with Randy Cunningham about his tangle with the Mig-17. That was fascinating. Anyway, I hope we can continue with this discussion. It is great to see others that enjoy it. I agree that everything for WWII has been declassed and I am especially happy to see Germany now finding and releasing more information. Unfortunately I can't speak German but maybe it will be translated. We are learning so much more. Even material from Korea and Vietnam is being declassed giving us far more data and insight. My problem is that I have certain restrictions on what I can discuss, as most ex-military know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 18:14:45 GMT -6
....and also ships and geopolitics. history grogs generally grog about everything.
runs and hides.
but back on topic... best ww2 fighter that have a great armament imho: the p-38. Especially since we're talking about the pacific theater and so it's regardless of what adolf galland thinks about it and i do agree it is problematic against them luftwaffe machines. but it is a great fit for the pacific and the combat history is long and distinguished. has great: speed, power, range, durability, survivability. most of all, boasting all nose armament with a heavy punch. can't think of another twin engined fighter that's as successful. whereas the bf110 and Ki-45 all blundered against single engined fighters the P-38 did great. the mosquito operated mostly in europe and yet again more multipurpose than pure long range air to air. handling wise like all of the type the counter rotating props eliminated torque problems making a stable gun platform and tricycle landing gear makes takeoff/landing easy.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 18:58:02 GMT -6
....and also ships and geopolitics. history grogs generally grog about everything. runs and hides. but back on topic... best ww2 fighter that have a great armament imho: the p-38. Especially since we're talking about the pacific theater and so it's regardless of what adolf galland thinks about it and i do agree it is problematic against them luftwaffe machines. but it is a great fit for the pacific and the combat history is long and distinguished. has great: speed, power, range, durability, survivability. most of all, boasting all nose armament with a heavy punch. can't think of another twin engined fighter that's as successful. whereas the bf110 and Ki-45 all blundered against single engined fighters the P-38 did great. the mosquito operated mostly in europe and yet again more multipurpose than pure long range air to air. handling wise like all of the type the counter rotating props eliminated torque problems making a stable gun platform and tricycle landing gear makes takeoff/landing easy. Actually you are right, we history grogs do grog about everything... it fun. I have to agree that the P-38, when used properly performed well. It was never designed as an escort fighter. It was a point to point defensive fighter designed to takeoff, climb quickly and shoot down bombers. It did take a bit of engineering to get rid of some dangerous problems. The engine cowlings had to be enlarged to keep the engines from overheating and the diving issue had to be resolved with a raised tail and automatic dive brakes to keep the tail from coming over the top and plane tumble. There was an attempt to re-engine it with Packard Merlins. Now that would have been a dangerous plane, man. She was an excellent aircraft for armed reconnaissance missions because of her speed at low altitudes and firepower. She made an excellent photo reconnaissance bird. I once had a conversation with one of the former P-38 pilots who escorted the Yamamoto killers. He said they just suddenly looked up and there they were, flying right where they were supposed to be. He and his buddies went after the escorts and kept them busy, the other four went after Yamamoto. Great conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2016 19:04:45 GMT -6
wasn't there a big fuss about who got the kill credit? was it ever resolved?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 19:10:04 GMT -6
wasn't there a big fuss about who got the kill credit? was it ever resolved? There were no gun cameras, so initially Tom Lamphier the leader was given credit. However, in 1973 all four pilots were given partial credit for the kill. The last die this year, Rex T. Barber.
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Post by steel selachian on Jun 11, 2016 20:32:04 GMT -6
wasn't there a big fuss about who got the kill credit? was it ever resolved? There were no gun cameras, so initially Tom Lamphier the leader was given credit. However, in 1973 all four pilots were given partial credit for the kill. The last die this year, Rex T. Barber. Lt. Rex Barber appears to have been the one who took down Yamamoto's G4M and finished off the second G4M carrying Vice Admiral Ugaki and some of Yamamoto's staff after the second aircraft had been damaged by one of the other "kill flight" pilots, Lt. Besby Holmes. Holmes initially had issues releasing his drop tanks. The fourth pilot in the flight, Lt. Raymond Hines, was the only US casualty; it's not known what happened to him. He may have been last seen covering Holmes while he tried to detach his tanks. By accounts of the escorting Zeros and by contrasting his account of the "kill" with the damage to Yamamoto's plane, Lanphier was never in position to get a shot. He claimed he had made a 180-degree turn from facing off against the escort Zeroes to hit a bomber from the right; as the P-38G did not have aileron boosts that would have been an impossible maneuver and also the damage to Yamamoto's plane came from behind, where Barber had been. Lanphier also claimed a Zero; according to the Japanese they did not lose any Zeroes in the engagement and only had one damaged. Lanphier also royally ticked off the Navy by radioing Guadalcanal prior to landing that, "That son of a bitch will not be dictating any peace terms in the White House," which was a potential compromise of operational security (the official story was that coastwatchers had observed a high-ranking Japanese officer boarding a plane). That, and leaks to the press in the following months, resulted in the Navy downgrading the mission commander's award from the Medal of Honor to the Navy Cross. Lanphier put in for the kill credit on Yamamoto's plane immediately after landing; after the war it was changed to a shared credit with Barber. Both men tried to claim sole credit until their deaths - Lanphier passed away in 1987, and Barber in 2001. It's a messy aftermath to what was perhaps one of the best-executed intercept missions in history. They flew 600 miles on a multi-leg course by dead reckoning to get there, and arrived one minute ahead of schedule and perfectly timed to catch the G4Ms as they began their landing approach.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 20:49:27 GMT -6
There were no gun cameras, so initially Tom Lamphier the leader was given credit. However, in 1973 all four pilots were given partial credit for the kill. The last die this year, Rex T. Barber. Lt. Rex Barber appears to have been the one who took down Yamamoto's G4M and finished off the second G4M carrying Vice Admiral Ugaki and some of Yamamoto's staff after the second aircraft had been damaged by one of the other "kill flight" pilots, Lt. Besby Holmes. Holmes initially had issues releasing his drop tanks. The fourth pilot in the flight, Lt. Raymond Hines, was the only US casualty; it's not known what happened to him. He may have been last seen covering Holmes while he tried to detach his tanks. By accounts of the escorting Zeros and by contrasting his account of the "kill" with the damage to Yamamoto's plane, Lanphier was never in position to get a shot. He claimed he had made a 180-degree turn from facing off against the escort Zeroes to hit a bomber from the right; as the P-38G did not have aileron boosts that would have been an impossible maneuver and also the damage to Yamamoto's plane came from behind, where Barber had been. Lanphier also claimed a Zero; according to the Japanese they did not lose any Zeroes in the engagement and only had one damaged. Lanphier also royally ticked off the Navy by radioing Guadalcanal prior to landing that, "That son of a bitch will not be dictating any peace terms in the White House," which was a potential compromise of operational security (the official story was that coaschers had observed a high-ranking Japanese officer boarding a plane). That, and leaks to the press in the following months, resulted in the Navy downgrading the mission commander's award from the Medal of Honor to the Navy Cross. Lanphier put in for the kill credit on Yamamoto's plane immediately after landing; after the war it was changed to a shared credit with Barber. Both men tried to claim sole credit until their deaths - Lanphier passed away in 1987, and Barber in 2001. It's a messy aftermath to what was perhaps one of the best-executed intercept missions in history. They flew 600 miles on a multi-leg course by dead reckoning to get there, and arrived one minute ahead of schedule and perfectly timed to catch the G4Ms as they began their landing approach. I had read that story a long time ago, it's nice to hear it again. Thanks Steel for providing the complete story. Lamphier claimed that he was clearing his guns and the Yamamoto Betty flew right through the stream of bullets. BTW, this was the only time in our history where we actually set out to assassinate an enemy leader. We can thank an over zealous officer in the IJN trying to notify his troops on Bougainville about the visit for handing his leader to us on a silver platter.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 11, 2016 20:59:35 GMT -6
Here is an interesting story. During the Aleutian operation, one of the Zero pilots; Lt. Koga returning to the carrier, ran out of fuel due to damage from AAA. He landed on Akutan Island where he was to be picked up by a submarine. Unfortunately, upon touchdown, the plane flipped over due the landing gears getting stuck in the mud, and the crash broke his neck. The US found the plane intact and it was shipped to North Island Naval Air Station. It was repaired however the propeller was badly damaged beyond repair. Well, a line chief happened to examine the prop and discovered the nomenclature tag on the inside, which said it was from Hamilton Standard, the leading propeller maker in the US and it had been purchased by the Japanese. HS was notified and they sent a replacement and the plane was tested over San Diego. There are photos of it flying. I used to work next to the hangar where it was repaired. This helped our forces and aviation engineers to figure out its strengths and weaknesses to allow our pilots to overcome it. BTW, it never led to the F6F Hellcat, that is a myth. The Hellcat flew two weeks after the Koga Zero was flown so there was no way that that could be true. Interesting story I think.
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