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Post by Airy W on Dec 9, 2016 13:10:14 GMT -6
I just had a battle where my 4000 ton cruiser and an enemy 5300 ton cruiser were both sunk. Much to my surprise, this counted as an enemy victory because the enemy had inflicted more damage. Shouldn't the bigger ship be worth more points?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 9, 2016 14:43:34 GMT -6
I just had a battle where my 4000 ton cruiser and an enemy 5300 ton cruiser were both sunk. Much to my surprise, this counted as an enemy victory because the enemy had inflicted more damage. Shouldn't the bigger ship be worth more points? Well, it could be based on that ships percentage of the total tonnage of the fleet. As an example, if that ship is 20% of the fleets tonnage, and your loss is 10% of the total tonnage of your fleet, then that ship would be of more value and hence increased points loss for the other side. It could be based on percentage of numbers of ships also, either way the side whose percentage is greatest, losses the most points. It could be the game is attrition based.
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Post by Airy W on Dec 9, 2016 14:46:37 GMT -6
I hope not, "rich get richer" mechanics are a bad idea generally speaking.
Also I dont think that is how it works, I haven't noticed victory scores go up if an enemy fleet is decimated.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 9, 2016 14:47:49 GMT -6
I hope not, "rich get richer" mechanics are a bad idea generally speaking. Also I dont think that is how it works, I haven't noticed victory scores go up if an enemy fleet is decimated. Maybe, but throughout history, attrition based power is generally the side that wins. God fights on the side of the bigger battalions.
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Post by Airy W on Dec 9, 2016 15:46:09 GMT -6
That doesn't mean it would be a good game mechanic. There are already mechanics to represent how attrition favors the bigger fleet. Namely that you will still have ships and be able to blockade the enemy.
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Post by axe99 on Dec 9, 2016 16:11:44 GMT -6
I didn't think ship points were determined by proportion of an enemies' fleet (but I've only paid enough attention to them to think this is probably not the case, not to be certain it isn't). That said, it's definitely solely based on tonnage either - I'm pretty sure things like armour, armament and propulsion have weightings. One way to test would be to build a couple of CLs with different characteristics (different quality/number of guns, machinery capabilities and armour) at the same tonnage and see how much variance you could get? Going off the top of my head, you should be able to see the ship points once its in the construction queue (through view details), apologies if the top of my head is wobbly.
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Post by Airy W on Dec 9, 2016 16:37:21 GMT -6
My theory is that it's the amount of damage done to the ship which might be more then the ships total hitpoints. So it makes sense to keep shelling a sinking ship in order to rack up score.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 9, 2016 17:45:32 GMT -6
i'm pretty sure that the point-worth of any ship is based on it's tech/age/cost to build as opposed to pure tonnage - i'v sunk an older B and lost a newer CA in the past and lost the battle due to points
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Post by chaosblade on Dec 10, 2016 5:10:49 GMT -6
think crew experience also factors in as well...
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Post by HolyDragoon on Dec 10, 2016 8:14:45 GMT -6
Did any of your other ships suffer damage as well? It also counts for DP calculations. I've 'lost' battles because despite sinking enemy ships, my own ships were torpedoed, though they still managed to limp home for repairs.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 10, 2016 9:04:49 GMT -6
In the early 1900's, a ship would be assigned a "life" or "fighting endurance" of say 1000 points for a battleship, 500 for an armored cruiser and 170 points for a protected cruiser. When a ship received enough points from hits to equal its fighting endurance, it was considered sunk, or had lost all its offensive capability; what we now call a mission kill. An example might be a battleship of that era hit by a torpedo might lose 500 points and all of its speed. other ships might be sunk. Ships would look a percentage of its fighting strength based on the number of points that it received in hits. In the Naval Game Rules from around that period, there are tables with ranges and corresponding points from a particular class of ship. Over time this was changed to 12 inch guns, a battleship was assigned twenty 12 inch. hits for its life and other classes were assigned corresponding hits of 12 inches. In 1922, the War College Fire Effect System came into use based on actual armaments and actual ships. Countries were assigned colors and the fire effect tables were prepared for each type of gun versus each type or class of target as a function of range, target angle and type of spot. Many other factors were accounted for. In the area of damage, it was classified by above water and below water. Total damage was the sum of both. Above water reduced the offensive capability and below water reduced the speed. It got much more complex. All in all, the rules for damage assessment have become more complex with the computer doing much of the calculations. So, in RTW, it is possible that there are multiple ways of calculating damage. FYI - From Clash of Arms here are two interesting pieces on this subject- clashofarms.com/files/Variable_Damage_Effects.pdfclashofarms.com/files/Staying_Power.pdfTwo books that I have that explain the history of Wargaming are : US Navy fundamentals of War Gaming and Playing War.
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Post by Airy W on Dec 10, 2016 9:27:57 GMT -6
Did any of your other ships suffer damage as well? It also counts for DP calculations. I've 'lost' battles because despite sinking enemy ships, my own ships were torpedoed, though they still managed to limp home for repairs. I had no other ships in the battle and the report showed no damage to other enemy ships.
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Post by axe99 on Dec 10, 2016 16:29:26 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 10, 2016 16:32:22 GMT -6
Thnks for the nice words. I like to provide as much factual information as I can, hope it adds to the discuss.
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Post by Airy W on Dec 10, 2016 18:28:44 GMT -6
It's an interesting perspective. I am a bit curious about the logarithmic damage chance of sinking curve they show however. Are there examples of ships sinking after suffering one of two hits of structural damage but not "critical" damage like magazine explosions?
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