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Post by randomizer on Feb 18, 2014 11:23:18 GMT -6
In your opinion, our research indicates otherwise but admittedly the real-life sample size is on the small side. HE does significant structure damage, protection was irrelevant as the damage occurs almost entirely outside of the protected areas. In 1914 the protected cruiser HMS Pegasus (similar to Tsushima but smaller) was wrecked and ordered abandoned after a mere five-10.5 cm HE hits from SMS Konigsburg so there seems nothing outside the statistical norms happening in your example.
I ran Tsushima through the Ship Sinker, HE from 5" guns at 3000 yds and it took an average of 40.36 hits to sink - low 8-hits and high 84-hits. This with damage control on and two-minutes between hits. There were also 21-flash fires, 12-out of control fires and zero magazine explosions in the 1000 test runs so overall these results seem entirely reasonable and your single example lies inside the probability curve yet again.
You think that the damage inflicted by SAI gunnery is unrealistic and that's fine for you to do so. Statistical analysis of the damage inflicted in the game indicates that overall, results appear entirely reasonable.
Thanks.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 18, 2014 11:34:44 GMT -6
Another example of too large structural damage. Three 5-inches hits and 45% damage in protected cruiser. Its fully unrealistic result. I have a simple question and its not meant to be argumentative. What factual data do you have, exclusive of the games results, that brings you to the conclusion that "its fully unrealistic result"? Do have real life data or engineering information that supports what you have said? I think that this is a fair and honest question for you. I would just like to know, so I can research this for myself. Thanks
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Post by alex on Feb 18, 2014 11:56:37 GMT -6
In the Battle of Tsushima Aurora has medium damage after 21 medium and light hits. The cruiser has not significant structural damage. In the picture you can see the typical real result after 6-inches or even 8-inches Japanese hit to Aurora cruiser: Attachment DeletedIt looks like damaged only 1-3% of cruiser structure (depends of internal shrapnel effect), but not 20% like in the game: Attachment Deleted
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Post by alex on Feb 18, 2014 20:27:58 GMT -6
Here is another example of such situation from WWI period. CL Emded has 25% structural damage after single 6-inches hit Attachment DeletedAnd here is situation after 5 resulted hits on Emden. The structure was fully destroyed in the game but it look different if we draw realistic damaged area for comparison Attachment Deleted
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Post by alex on Feb 19, 2014 7:40:27 GMT -6
In 1914 the protected cruiser HMS Pegasus (similar to Tsushima but smaller) was wrecked and ordered abandoned after a mere five-10.5 cm HE hits from SMS Konigsburg... It's not true. HMS Pegasus was not wrecked after 5 hits. It got a lot of hits and was abandoned after several waterline hits while cruiser began taking on water ( Battle of Zanzibar, Corbett). Guys, my posts is not how sink the ship, it's about how structural damage calculation in the game.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 19, 2014 9:45:28 GMT -6
In 1914 the protected cruiser HMS Pegasus (similar to Tsushima but smaller) was wrecked and ordered abandoned after a mere five-10.5 cm HE hits from SMS Konigsburg... It's not true. HMS Pegasus was not wrecked after 5 hits. It got a lot of hits and was abandoned after several waterline hits while cruiser began taking on water ( Battle of Zanzibar, Corbett). Guys, my posts is not how sink the ship, it's about how structural damage calculation in the game. I've been trying to find your reference to Zanzibar by Sir Julian Corbett. I've found information that states the Konigsberg commenced firing at 9000 yards with her 10.5 cm guns decreasing the range over 25 minutes to around 6000 yards. The guns, according to Navweaps had an estimated rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 2264 FPS. The HE round had a weight of 38.4 lbs, the AP rounds were a lttle less. At 15 rounds per minutes, that's about 375 rounds. Based on Konigsbergs diagrams, the best she could have done is 5 - 4.1 inch guns broadsides. That equals about 1875 rounds of 4.1 inch for 25 minutes. At a hit rate of 1%, that's about 18.75 hits if all of my estimates are correct. Accounts state that most of Konigsbergs shot fell short so it appears that as she moved closer, she marched her broadsides into Pegasus. At a 4% hit rate, that is about 75 possible hits. Hopefully, Randomizer can validate my findings which are very rudimentary and I am not certain of the hit rate accuracy at all. IMO, there is not enough good data. It seems that Pegasus might have been hit by as many as 75 shots, if everything was correct, which I doubt. But I don't believe at 50% of the range of the guns, that a 4% hit rate is valid, 1% seems to me to be closer. All I am trying to do here is understand the problem so I define it with numbers. I know, in 1898 at the Battle of Manila, a 4.1% hit rate was achieved by US 4.1 inch guns but I am not certain of the range.
I hope someone can enlighten me so I can understand the gunnery in this game. Just my inquisitive nature. Can I setup a scenario for these two ships, and just test?
Update: Here is quote an extract that I got from History of the Great War - Naval Operations, by Sir Julian Corbett. Attachment Deleted
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Post by julianbarker on Feb 19, 2014 14:50:14 GMT -6
The old forum had a custom Zanzibar scenario where Konigsberg gets to take on Pegasus at sea accompanied by other ships of her squadron who were absent from the historical engagement. I imagine it will be updated and reposted shortly. In the scenario Kongsberg can make quite quick work of the old cruisers but needs to avoid getting ganged up on by picking them off.
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Post by Fredrik W on Feb 19, 2014 15:02:24 GMT -6
The damage numbers are a numeric way to express damage to the ship, but they should not be taken too literally. 100% superstructure damage does not mean that every single enclosed room on the ship above the armor deck including the captains loo has been completely wrecked. It means that he ship has received damage to an extent that ROF, accuracy, damage control etc are seriously affected.
The ship data and damage mechanisms in the game have been extensively tested and is the best estimate we could make, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect in all circumstances, so constructive feedback is appreciated. Alex, as I understand you mean that the damage for cruisers is too big? Is this for all shells or just for HE?
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Post by alex on Feb 20, 2014 6:47:04 GMT -6
Yes, I think that structural damages (even they has integral status) are too big for all ships and larger that was in real battles. It's for HE shells now. I don't compire results of AP shells.
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Post by alex on Feb 20, 2014 7:07:34 GMT -6
There is another problem in SAI campaigns. Player can use best ships each turns for all operations without any limitations. Several people suggest some change in campaings. We suggest to append for each ship a special 'ready status' from 0 to 100. So if player use ship with small 'ready status' the ship receives penalty for speed, ROF, accuracy, damage control, cruising range, time of raising steam and have a chance to receive big engine damage. After each turn 'ready status' was increased for all ships which not be used in operations and was decreased of all ships which were activated by player. The increased or decreased level depends on crew quality, OP, port abilities and some random factors. AI side don't use 'ready status' rule. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Fredrik W on Feb 20, 2014 14:07:45 GMT -6
You do have a point. At present, ships that are activated will need refit sooner, but that effect is rather slight. I will think about it.
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durin
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by durin on Feb 20, 2014 23:05:40 GMT -6
Alex's suggestion is very reasonable. More better than OP-only system. Will hope for this.
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